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Cerunya
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  • 0. Class Q&A Series: Paladin    09/07/2009 10:18:04 PDT
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Community Team: In this segment, we will be talking with Greg Street about the paladin class and discussing where this class started and where we feel they are going, as well as covering an assortment of topics relating to itemization, buffs, abilities, and other cool stuff.

Q. Where do paladins fit into the larger scope of things currently and where do you see them going from this point forward?

A. The paladin is an iconic class from fantasy role-playing, and one which Warcraft has been able to put its own stamp all over. Obviously they figure prominently in the lore, up to and including the Lich King himself.

The paladin started out as a defensive buffing class. Early on, buffs were pretty much the entire reason you’d want to group with a paladin. (And if you want to put a fine point on it, it took about all of the paladin’s attention to keep those buffs up).

End-game paladins in vanilla World of Warcraft were pretty much healers, which was disappointing for some players to discover once they reached level 60. As most of our readers probably already know, the paladin class was exclusive to the Alliance. We realized that we kept pushing the paladin and shaman abilities closer and closer together to solve faction imbalance issues, and that process was hurting the classes, so we’d be better off just having paladins and shamans on both sides. In Burning Crusade, paladins gained the ability to tank and could do so quite well in some situations, but were still positioned more in an off-tank role. In Wrath of the Lich King, we finally embraced all three specs of paladins: Protection paladins can tank anything. Retribution paladins are a legitimate dps spec in both PvE and PvP. And of course, paladins could still heal.

Q. What is it that makes them unique compared to all other classes?

A. Despite our design changes to share buffs around among more classes, we still kept several abilities unique to the paladin in order to keep a hint of their original role. Thus paladins have everything from their powerful Blessings to their bubbles like Divine Shield, the ability to dispel multiple kinds of debuffs, and utility abilities like Blessing of Freedom or Hammer of Justice. Paladins can wear plate armor in all three roles, which is particularly powerful for a healer. Finally, the Seal and Judgement system is a unique mechanic that works like no other class.

Community Team: We’ve received quite a bit of feedback concerning the current itemization for paladin tier-set gear and the importance of other stats over MP5.

Q. Specifically, how do we feel about the healing itemization for paladins thus far? Do we still feel MP5 is as important as other stats such as Int, Crit, Haste, and Spell Power? Are there plans to incorporate more of these other stats in later tiers of paladin healing gear?

A. In Lich King up until now, MP5 has not been as valuable to most paladins as say Int, Crit, or Spell Power, and really it wasn’t intended to be. It is particularly relevant that you are hardly ever choosing between Int and MP5. However, we also think that MP5 became undervalued as a stat and as most of you know, we are buffing it for 3.2. Furthermore, we think we have allowed paladin mana regen through Int and Crit to get a little out of control. We don’t want to force paladins to care only about MP5, but we also don’t want them viewing it as a total junk stat, like say Agility, either. Crit is just too beneficial to be strictly a regen stat.

From the 3.2 PTR testing so far, it seems like some Holy paladins are taking a second look at Haste and MP5 possibly instead of Crit. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, and we will adjust as necessary, but it’s nice to see paladins at least consider the stats now before making a gear decision.

We have also hinted before that we’ve had trouble developing distinct niches for MP5 and Spirit and are considering collapsing those two stats in the future. This would be a change with a lot of ramifications though -- we wouldn’t just replace MP5 on gear with Spirit and call it a day.

Community Team: Paladins provide a slew of powerful buffs and spells that help all classes with tanking, healing and damage-dealing.

Q. How do we feel about raid-wide paladin buffs instead of limiting the buff applications per class, only?

A. We think it works out fine. It’s a different buff mechanic than other classes and helps to ensure that the second or third paladin is still considered valuable instead of letting a single one buff everyone.

Q. Blessing of Sanctuary is designed around providing buffs for tanks; are there plans to re-work its design to provide added benefits for more than just tanking?

A. No, we want it to be a tanking Blessing. However, we want it to be a superior tanking buff than Kings for the Protection paladin. In the 3.2 patch notes, we indicated that Sanctuary will also provide the same Stam buff as Kings, but will not stack with Kings (though Kings would still provide bonuses to the other stats).

Q. Do we feel Flash of Light and the changes in store for it will allow for additional diversification for the existing healing spells available? Aside from Holy Light, Flash of Light, and Holy Shock, are there any plans to provide paladins with other interesting healing spells later down the road?

A. Later down the road most likely, but it won’t be for 3.2 and it won’t be with something that looks like Prayer of Healing or Wild Growth. We do think paladins will have more of a use for Flash of Light now with the extra benefit to Sacred Shield. The changes to Beacon of Light in 3.2 should make paladins an exceptional dual target healer.

Community Team: Now that we’re on the topic of paladin buffs and spells, dps and versatility has been a topic of concern for many players with respect to both PvE and PvP.

Q. All classes vary in dps from one encounter to another; however, some paladins may feel their dps can be less competitive at times in comparison to other classes, more so in straight stationary single-target dps encounters. How do we feel paladins are doing in terms of dps across the board?

A. Retribution dps is too low in PvE in 3.1. We are buffing it in 3.2 through the new way Seal of Vengeance / Corruption will work. This Seal is designed to really deliver damage once the paladin gets five stacks up, which will make it the Seal of choice for boss fights. Seal of Command will be used in PvP or PvE for short fights. We expect overall for Corruption / Vengeance to be the “go-to” Seal much of the time, perhaps even in PvP, provided you can keep the buff up.

Q. Exorcism will be usable in both PvE and PvP once more which is great; aside from allowing this ability to be used against other players, what were the reasons to go down this route in redesigning this attack?

A. Exorcism never did a ton of damage to players, but it was an instant attack which meant paladins could use it while closing with an enemy. It was essentially just free damage and never a decision of any kind. The new approach to the spell prevents it from being used while closing, and also makes Retribution paladins have to pay a little more attention to their combat rotation -- you want to use Exorcism when Art of War procs, and generally not at other times.

We understand this is a small adjustment to Protection paladins, which is why we improved Hand of Reckoning. The 3.2 patch will be pretty good for paladin tanks overall so hopefully they will forgive us.

Q. Consecration seems to utilize a sizable portion of mana per application of this spell; do we have plans on making this a bit more mana-efficient?

A. We think the mana cost is appropriate. Retribution and Protection paladins have enough ways to earn mana back that it doesn’t seem to be slowing them down much.

[ Post edited by Wryxian ]


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Cerunya
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  • 1. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 10:18:25 PDT
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Community Team: Specifically with the various spells and abilities that paladins have in a PvP encounter, there have been questions concerning regarding survivability and utility, let’s get into some of these.

Q. Do we feel Divine Shield is fine in its current rendition versus other abilities such as Shattering Throw and Mass dispel?

A. Divine Shield is just a very powerful spell, so game-changing that we thought it needed a counter. The problem is that only one class has access to Mass Dispel, which we feel makes priests too much of a “hard counter” to paladins. We understand that classes will to some extent always have other classes they are better or worse against, but we want to avoid extremes. Shattering Throw is an attempt to let someone other than a priest have the chance to break the bubble. We implemented the ability as a ranged attack to help discourage warrior “tunnel vision” in just always unleashing all their attacks on the same target rather than having to switch targets on occasion.

Q. Will it be possible to prevent Avenging Wrath from being dispelled as well? This ability is the means to allow for on-demand maximum dps output for a brief period of time and only affects the paladin.

A. It’s possible but not probable. Really this is symptomatic of a larger problem, which is that the dispel game has become too important in PvP. If the other team has a dispeller, then abilities like Avenging Wrath get totally shut down. If the other team lacks a dispeller, then they may be in trouble. This leads to junk buffs and inconsistencies on which abilities can be dispelled or not. We are going to redo the entire system, though not for 3.2. One direction to take dispelling is to give magic dispel to all the healers (since 90% of player spells are magical), but to prevent offensive dispelling of any kind, or at least prevent dispels for “your-class-is-supposed-to-have-this buff” like Arcane Int or Fort.

Q. Do we have plans to introduce a stand-alone interrupt ability for paladins?

A. We would like to add this kind of utility to paladins. First we have to get the burst damage under control so that Ret paladins are not winning PvP encounters by blowing players up. When we accomplish that, we’ll look at finally giving them more tools.

Q. With the slew of options to either "jump into" or "jump out of" PvP encounters for either offensive or defensive purposes many classes receive, do we have any plans to incorporate special abilities for paladins to either help them escape tough situations or quickly get into pvp battle (i.e. Deathgrip, Typhoon, Summoning Circle, Disengage, etc.)? It seems paladins are the only class without a short cool-down ability on the same scale.

A. Players are pretty good at detecting problems, but for solutions they tend to just look around at what other classes have that is working for them. Homogenization is something we fight as much as we can, which is the reason not every class has Death Grip and not every class has Charge. Judgment of Justice is intended to be the gap-closer for paladins. If it becomes a huge liability, we’ll evaluate, but at the moment paladins are doing extremely well in PvP without it.

Q. Ranged attacks are extremely limited for paladins and are not considered a primary form of dps. However, players feel they would like an ability that will aid them in bridging the gap between melee vs. ranged. Do we have any plans to implement something to this extent?

A. We’ve already changed the “no ranged attacks” philosophy on paladins already and don’t feel the need to continue making them better at range.

Community Team: We’re on our last set of questions here, so let’s switch it up a tad and talk a bit about Librams and aesthetics.

Q. Do we have plans to incorporate a larger variety of Librams?

A. We try and make sure the three main paladin roles have their Librams covered. As these are special items that no other class can use, we have to make sure we don’t drop them too often in PvE encounters, but we have no problem putting more on badge vendors. Usually it’s just a matter of time because a new tier of content, like the Call of the Crusade patch, already involves making literally over a thousand new items.

Q. Do we have plans to incorporate Librams as a more prominent aspect of the paladin class? Also, can we expect to see Librams as a physical aesthetic item on the paladin? Much like the quiver is for the hunter (except only the hunter can see their own quiver mounted on their back).

A. This is something players suggest a lot, and honestly something we’d like to do. It’s a pretty iconic image from Warcraft, especially Warcraft III, to have the paladin toting around their libram. Someone at BlizzCon last year asked if they could beat on people with it. This is a big task to put on the art team though so we would want to make sure we do it right. The same answer would apply to shaman totems and hunter quivers. On the other hand, it took a long time to finally update the druid cat and bear art so don’t look for this in 3.2.

"Wann treffen wir vier wieder zusamm'?"
"Zur Morgenstund'" "Im Forum dann?"
"Im Allgemein'." "Ich lösch die Flamm'."
"Ich komme." "Ich mit." ...

Community Team, German
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  • Defias Brotherhood
  • 2. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 10:35:37 PDT
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Wooh interupt finally!

First! \o/

Holy Paladin is the Ret Paladin of healers.
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  • 3. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 10:36:49 PDT
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second

My goodness! My Guinness!
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  • Chamber of Aspects
  • 4. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 10:53:47 PDT
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Was waiting for this :) But how the heck Judgement of Justice is ment to be capcloser for paladins? :o

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  • Doomhammer
  • 5. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:00:34 PDT
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They kill our burst then tell us we will get proper tools when the burst is lower.
They kill our aoe dmg for a tiny bit increase in single target dmg.
They lower our healing from JoL.
He says that dot seal is THE seal for pve/pvp even though it breaks repentance and forces us to play even more faesrol since we got no proper cc without rep.
Everyone, and their mother, is kiting us and desecration and coi are fine.
Even though everyone is kiting us, we need no distance closer.
JoJ is a snare.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is a marine biologist.
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  • Bloodscalp
  • 6. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:07:52 PDT
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Q u o t e:
Homogenization is something we fight as much as we can.


I lol'd.
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  • 7. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:08:19 PDT
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Nice to finally see :)

I wouldn't read to much into the answers as things especially with paladins seems hard for blizz to balance right.

As an answer to JoJ being the gap closer (we all know the math's) but it is meant to be used with PoJ so say giving us the ability to limit a target's movement to 100% while ours stays at 115%. They look on JoJ+PoJ+HoF as a gap closer for paladins. It's not instant like other classes and this is where people take an issue up with it, but it is still a theoretical "gap-closer", at least thats how i look at it and i think the dev's do aswell

Will be nice if they finally get Ret burst sorted and then give us the ability's we need (although i wont hold my breath lol).

It seem's they really are trying to pin down a lot of the spec's though. Holy as a dual-target healer rather than a single target. Prot as a really good all round tank (multi-mob/AoE and Single target) and Ret as a good DPS both single target and multi mob.

I do hope we see some advance's to this in future and see blizz say they are happy with Ret Burst and we are getting "pewpew healz0r interupt0rz" lol


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Gabereil 80 Blood DK
Ceolwulf (deceased)
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  • 8. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:08:50 PDT
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Q u o t e:
Everyone, and their mother, is kiting us and desecration and coi are fine.
Even though everyone is kiting us, we need no distance closer.
JoJ is a snare.


He didn't say JoJ is a snare, he said it was a gap closer and it is, though weak. Technically Paladins have a lot of things to close the distance:

Freedom
Pursuit of Justice
Judgement of Justice
Toughness
Cleanse

It's just the fact that none of these are particularly powerful or gets countered easily that's the problem.

[ Post edited by Fotmoofassa ]


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  • Mazrigos
  • 9. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:20:34 PDT
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I lol'd.

That really didn't answer anything.
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  • 10. Re: Class Q&A Series: Paladin    09/07/2009 11:45:29 PDT
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is it just me or is SoC a little neglected here? on ptr its the worst spell/talent in the game having no purpose with even Seal of righteousness hitting harder and judging alot harder

rofl armory=fail
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  • Balnazzar
  • 11. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:47:03 PDT
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I laugh.

It really took them this long to make the retribution spec a dps spec? I'm laughing, I really do.
First buff bots to being mostly healers at 60, at 70 it's healer or tank and finaly, finaly after 2 expansions (4 years?) you can finally be either dps, healer or tank! Way to go blizz, you are awesome (Not). Just remake paladins a buff bot already, as we should be.

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  • 12. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:48:28 PDT
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Not sure that could have been any worse.

Very, very unhappy at how blizz is treating this class. Im sure you guys *know* what you want the class to be and know how it works... but I have to say that right now you have no clue whats goin on

Ret - "We gutted your burst cos people with no resi die in a hammer but hey don't worry we'll wait another expansion before we'll give you that utility u need."

(btw JoJ as a gap closer made me fall off my chair good one there devs. If im using JoJ don;t u think im in range already ROFL??????)

Holy - "Your fine cos beacon overheals, nobody cares that ur now the most inefficient healer and have been screwed over on the one thing you were any good at. Oh and that FoL Hot that gets overwritten instantly by another and heals for fk all amounts will probably be op, we'll hhave to nerf it before it gets off the ptr. Oh and btw.. just if we didn;t mention it, beacon now overheals so thats all your problems sorted anyway."

(Don;t even get me started having to go prot to be a viable healer in arena)


Prot seems in a good place though i have to say.

[ Post edited by Valkar ]

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  • Doomhammer
  • 13. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 11:52:27 PDT
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Q u o t e:

He didn't say JoJ is a snare, he said it was a gap closer and it is, though weak. Technically Paladins have a lot of things to close the distance:

Freedom
Pursuit of Justice
Judgement of Justice
Toughness
Cleanse

It's just the fact that none of these are particularly powerful or gets countered easily that's the problem.


Oh my bad. JoJ is a gap closer. A gap closer that has casting range of max 10yards while on the other hand warrior can't even use charge unless min 8yards away from target. How funny is that :)
Pursuit of justice = 15% speed increase
Everyone and their mother has an enchant that gives them minor movement boost which is 7%.. So we are actually running 8% faster than anyone else that's not a ret and our gap closer is us running to them so we can judge them so we can again run to them to hit them a bit. Excellent.
In a very unlikely case of us getting crippling, hamstring, desecration, frost trap etc etc, our target will move at a MISERABLE 100% speed while we will chase them at WHOOPING 50% speed (best case scenario).
Hey, i have an idea, lets add a skill:
Divine OMG PLZ STOP - Begs a target to stop in place so we can unleash a complete lack of any decent dmg. Target has innate 100% to resist the effects of Divine OMG PLZ STOP.

[ Post edited by Fichoo ]

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  • Chamber of Aspects
  • 15. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 12:47:53 PDT
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Like said have been waiting for this. Actually this didnt bring anything new to paladins and it answered to roughly 0 most wanted questions paladin have been asking. Did other classes have this useless Q & A? As this is pretty pathetic. And calling Judgement of Justice capcloser is very bad joke... And when those PVP abilities that they are talking are coming now that they have nerfed our burst to be hardly mediocore? At next expansion?

edit. paladins are doing extreamly well on PVP? Oh sorry i thought classes that dominate every single tournament were RMP...

[ Post edited by Mattitja ]


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  • Vek'nilash
  • 16. Re: Class Q & A Series – Paladin   09/07/2009 13:53:02 PDT
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Q u o t e:
Wooh interupt finally!

First! \o/


A boring addition, albeit a solution.

Also...no gap closer. Apparently JoJ is our gap closer, when we already need to have closed the gap to use it.

Who is testing these changes?

EJL

[ Post edited by Talen ]


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  • Vek'nilash
  • 17. Re: Class Q&A Series: Paladin    09/07/2009 14:14:49 PDT
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Q u o t e:
[Q. What is it that makes them unique compared to all other classes?

A. Despite our design changes to share buffs around among more classes, we still kept several abilities unique to the paladin in order to keep a hint of their original role. Thus paladins have everything from their powerful Blessings to their bubbles like Divine Shield, the ability to dispel multiple kinds of debuffs, and utility abilities like Blessing of Freedom or Hammer of Justice. Paladins can wear plate armor in all three roles, which is particularly powerful for a healer. Finally, the Seal and Judgement system is a unique mechanic that works like no other class.


Several of these decisions are - IMO - mistakes. Not to mention HoJ is a simple stun.


Q u o t e:
From the 3.2 PTR testing so far, it seems like some Holy paladins are taking a second look at Haste and MP5 possibly instead of Crit. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, and we will adjust as necessary, but it’s nice to see paladins at least consider the stats now before making a gear decision.


And not one word about the thoughts behind getting rid of spell power plate?


Q u o t e:
A. We think it works out fine. It’s a different buff mechanic than other classes and helps to ensure that the second or third paladin is still considered valuable instead of letting a single one buff everyone.


It's a right pain, thats what it is. The Blessing system needs to be revamped. We have too many unqiue blessings and what we have are too useful. Blizzard should be limiting the buffs a bit more so more classes can get involved without making people feel they need 3 or 4 paladins.


Q u o t e:
Q. Blessing of Sanctuary is designed around providing buffs for tanks; are there plans to re-work its design to provide added benefits for more than just tanking?


Case in point. BoSanc is of benefit mainly to tanks. This is a Blessing a Protadin can typically provide for hismef. And there are better, simpler ways to provide the buff.


Q u o t e:
A. Later down the road most likely, but it won’t be for 3.2 and it won’t be with something that looks like Prayer of Healing or Wild Growth. We do think paladins will have more of a use for Flash of Light now with the extra benefit to Sacred Shield. The changes to Beacon of Light in 3.2 should make paladins an exceptional dual target healer.


FoL ....even with the HoT...won't be of benefit unless it can keep up with damage. The SS ensures only the MT will be likely to benefit. Which means the HoT will tick only during low damage moments when the holydin is moving.

If (as seems fairly likely) the buff is of more benefit to Prot and Ret survivability, it's going to get nerfed.


Q u o t e:
A. Retribution dps is too low in PvE in 3.1. We are buffing it in 3.2 through the new way Seal of Vengeance / Corruption will work. This Seal is designed to really deliver damage once the paladin gets five stacks up, which will make it the Seal of choice for boss fights. Seal of Command will be used in PvP or PvE for short fights. We expect overall for Corruption / Vengeance to be the “go-to” Seal much of the time, perhaps even in PvP, provided you can keep the buff up.


Curently, the redesign doesn't work. The combo builder system is poorly designed. SoC is too weak to be of benefit.


Q u o t e:
A. Exorcism never did a ton of damage to players, but it was an instant attack which meant paladins could use it while closing with an enemy. It was essentially just free damage and never a decision of any kind. The new approach to the spell prevents it from being used while closing, and also makes Retribution paladins have to pay a little more attention to their combat rotation -- you want to use Exorcism when Art of War procs, and generally not at other times.


And the cast time fails in almost every single point here. Its not going to make Ret pay much attention to their rotation because Exorcism retains its 15s CD. Its not going to prevent the spell being used while clsoing becasue the AoW can proc from anything. Even that L1 rabbit you just whacked. It stops Exorcism beign sued as a pull, or an extar source of threat for Prot. It hurts Holy DPS.


Q u o t e:
We understand this is a small adjustment to Protection paladins, which is why we improved Hand of Reckoning. The 3.2 patch will be pretty good for paladin tanks overall so hopefully they will forgive us.


I'll miss the second pull Exorcism gave me. I'll miss having the ability to interweave it with HotR as a single target Consecration. But we had it for one patch. It was useful, great and helped fill a large hole. It will be missed.

Especially since reducing Exorcism range would actually solve pretty much every issue you had with the spell while leaving Holy and Prot pretty much untouched.


Q u o t e:
A. We think the mana cost is appropriate. Retribution and Protection paladins have enough ways to earn mana back that it doesn’t seem to be slowing them down much.



Yeah. Mana regen also needs to be looked at.

EJL

"All my beautiful magic..."
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