were ideal atm, but i dont see them nerfing us as we are at our peak.

with topend gear you are on arm pen cap & so the next level of gear (t9) wont benefit us hugely.

scaling beyond t8 may be an issue.

Nerf ArPen across all classes than!

ArP is being nerfed next patch iirc. Just a bit cause it's an 'endless' stat.

I don't care, prefer agi anyway :p

And tbh, I'm happy with the position we have. As I said before we are somewhat leaning to the OP side but this is just about ONLY on ideal fights. Where you can stand 100% of the time behind the boss and keep your rotation up while reading a book.

How often does THAT happen? :p

I'm in quite a good guild. We're on Algalon in 10, done 2 of 4 watchers HM in HC. I always get a spot but simply cause I'm a tank who has pretty good dps gear and know my rotation inside and out.

As you move onto HMs in Ulduar, fights start becoming less and less idealistic. General improves with it's stationary tanking (at least in 10 man, haven't done it on HC yet, casters should be above me there though) , and XT becomes fun with pumping 22K dps on the heart <3. But even on the heart fase I've been outdmged by a mage (he's the only one though).

But Thorim becomes less ideal. There is so much going on I have trouble keeping my rotation up and at times it's better to run away than risk a CL that'll kill someone. Mirmiron HM... Oh I love that fight so much, but another fight where running away is sometimes the best.

I would in no way think I'm the equal of Tun. I know my class, I know my rotation, but I still notice making mistakes, I know that at some points I can improve my dps even more.

And as some people pointed out, there is a very good chance (as usual) that our dps won't scale like other classes. I'm already noticing on certain fights where other dps have gear improvements, the difference between my dps and theirs becomes smaller and smaller. In t9 we'll probably not top the dmg meters anymore, not even on ideal fights.

And yes I realize that I'm only listing things that only a minority has access to... but it's what I care about. ^^ I'm enjoying my moment in the spotlight, where I'm considered one of the top dpsers in the guild, and people are actually passing on main spec gear. ^^

Ow and about Tun getting every single buff he can get to max his dps... Shouldn't every class do that? It's rather mandatory in my guild :p We've actually replaced ppl who didn't bring their food/flasks/pots with them on progress raids.

Change savage roar to proc off crits for x number of seconds.

---

Q u o t e:
Change savage roar to proc of crits for x number of seconds.

---

Oh God yes, yes yes yes yes yes, oh so yes! please one less button to push would be perfect. nothing more nothing less.

One other idea i just thought of, making omen of clarity proc of finishing moves.
didnt sound to bad, maby i'll hate it later when been thinking awhile on it.

edit:added finishing moves, and i'm thinking added to how it works now.

Simple but brilliant tbh.
Maybe lower the damage % a bit also if enough crit can guarantee a 100% uptime.

Just pretty pretty pls don't let RNG get involved.
Learn from our boomkin friends.

---

Q u o t e:


It is true that Cat DPS may be a little too high, but it is important to also highlight that this is not merely a matter of throwing in a nerf here or there. Adjusting Cat DPS is rather complicated because of the fact that it is a demanding spec to play well.

If we are to adjust Cat DPS, we will have to avoid doing it in a way that makes it a simple matter for the more adept players to adjust, but harder for those of less experience. It is not our intent to punish the less skilled players with a massive loss of damage output.

---

This would be a lot more difficult, but the way I see it, in a perfect world, all the classes and specs would have as complicated rotations as feral druids(DPS wise).
So that in the end it would rely on the player to be good in order to achieve high dps and not the class.

The class itself would present you with maybe an easier or more difficult rotation up to a point, but the top level would be solely dependant on the player. So potentially you could see a hybrid be top dps, but pure classes would be more likely to have higher damage output, up to a certain point.

(I know it's not feasible, since the game has to cater to people who can't keep an eye on 6 simultaneous abilities in order to survive an instance.)

But essentially I'm saying... don't bring the druids down, bring everyone else up, but let them work for it like we have to to.

---

Q u o t e:

Combatres & innervate are always powerful, other hybrids and their support are more situational than ours.

---

Yeah Bloodlust (shaman), Hysteria (DK), Shattering Throw (Warrior), Raidbubble/LoH/DI (Paladin) that are used tactically on pretty much every encounter in Ulduar really are more situational than CR/Innervate which are…only used in situational cases when someone dies (rarely) or is oom (more rare).

Oh wait…what?

/sarcasm off

Even rogue’s have utility that is used 24/7 on encounters like Kick/TotT. They even have utility that is situational like Stuns/Wound Poison.

There is nothing special about our utility…at all.

---

Q u o t e:

The LotP healing is not too high, but it helps more than fury rampage does.

---

Gamebreaking utility for raiding right there……>.>

---

Q u o t e:

Plus, we too can be assigned to interrupt duty if there's no one else to do it. That very likely means that we lose our dps:ing capabilities, but we'll do the interrupting as fine as rogues do.

---

Ahahahahahahaha…have you ever done cat dps in raids? Seriously? DK, Shamans, Rogues are far superior in interrupt duties, you would know that if you did General Vezax. Simply because we lose combo points for it which basically means you can not keep SR/Rip up and totally making it impossible to do Ferocious Bites in between your rotation.

---

Q u o t e:

With us being top2 melee dps:ers

---

Says who? You? Your experience? The trolls?

---

Q u o t e:

isn't there any room for a small nerf?

---

You just proved yourself to be an incompetent tard when it comes to feral dps and have no right to judge feral dps simply because you lack experience/knowledge about it. Stop making a fool of yourself by listing idiotic things that are plain wrong and then asking for a feral dps nerf.

---

Q u o t e:

Says who? You? Your experience? The trolls?

---

Ensidia lists ferals as being their top melee dps. I'd say their opinion counts for a lot.
There's no denying it, feral dps is high. Not gamebreaking high, but high.

---

Q u o t e:


It is true that Cat DPS may be a little too high, but it is important to also highlight that this is not merely a matter of throwing in a nerf here or there. Adjusting Cat DPS is rather complicated because of the fact that it is a demanding spec to play well.

If we are to adjust Cat DPS, we will have to avoid doing it in a way that makes it a simple matter for the more adept players to adjust, but harder for those of less experience. It is not our intent to punish the less skilled players with a massive loss of damage output.

---

Are you saying it's fine for skilled players to take a massive loss of damage output ?
Cause that is what it looks like to me :/

What kind of wierd philosophy are you guys following here ?
It should be the less skllled players that should see a massive drop , forcing them to need to learn to play their own class and stop trying to faceroll while skilled players should be able to adapt easy.

That is how it should be , not the other way around as you are describing it.

---

Q u o t e:
Change savage roar to proc off crits for x number of seconds.

---

Change savage roar to have a 60% chance to proc off shred crits, make it last 15 seconds with a 30 second internal cooldown.

---

Q u o t e:


If we are to adjust Cat DPS, we will have to avoid doing it in a way that makes it a simple matter for the more adept players to adjust, but harder for those of less experience. It is not our intent to punish the less skilled players with a massive loss of damage output.

---

I would rather see other classes damage buffed and their rotations changed so it also make some effort to maintain. I always hated those 1-ability classes that can pull out same DPS than classes who must work on their damage :P (TBC locks/elemental shammys/mages come to mind).
Casuality is fine, but at least give us possibilities to improve as players. No challenge = no fun :P.

---

Q u o t e:


Ensidia lists ferals as being their top melee dps. I'd say their opinion counts for a lot.
There's no denying it, feral dps is high. Not gamebreaking high, but high.

---

Last I checked Tun said feral dps is more than fine and in no way should be nerfed and probably is not going to. So I wonder where you found this statement of Ensidia listing ferals druids as "top dps". Especially since they only have 1 feral druid.

It shines on a few fights that favor feral dps(burst), especially when concidering that ferals get Hysteria+TotT spam on fights that already favor ferals, you get a double strong effect. This would produce insane numbers which are often seen and biasing people.

That and their opinion doesn't count more than any random other guild.


Feral dps is fine. If a rogue and a feral in equal gear/skill are on a boss. Both DO NOT get TotT, Heroism, Hysteria etc... Rogue should outdps the feral on every single fight even X002.
I know my rogues, my rogues know me...we are all elitist theorycrafting bastards with 10k addons.....this is pretty much how they and I feel. The reason we do well on X002: Burst
Feral burst > Rogue burst (I do about 16k burst on X002 heart)
But rogue's catch up since their consistant dps is far superior.

Even on general we notice it. Have a rogue that is evenly skilled/geared dps instead of interupt. Then make sure hysteria/TotT goes to other players instead of the feral. Compare the feral and rogue. The rogue -should- constantly be doing more dps than the feral.

---

Q u o t e:


Last I checked Tun said feral dps is more than fine and in no way should be nerfed and probably is not going to. So I wonder where you found this statement of Ensidia listing ferals druids as "top dps". Especially since they only have 1 feral druid.

---

http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/World-of-Ming/New-System-Better-Than-Old-Interview-with-Ensidia-PvE

There ya go.

---

Q u o t e:
That and their opinion doesn't count more than any random other guild.

---

Of course someone had to say that... /sigh it's not absolutely proof, and I'm not treating it as such.
But It matters when its the most important fight in all of current PVE and when they are considered to have some of the best players in the world, yes?

As for the rest of your post, you don't have to explain, negotiate or retaliate, I'm fine with our DPS being what it is as well as the situations we get subjected to.

But fact and ultimatum is, that we do very high dps.

The important thing is, how will developers handle it? Will they cater to butthurt pure DPS and swing the bat in our faces as so many times before, or will they make an effort to adjust other class' dps and try to balance it out, top side?


I'm not a covert rogue trying to badmouth our class :D
But the silly excuses and trying to deny the facts and truth that we do so well on meters that a very skilled feral is currently indeed a much appreciated spec and attractive player to have.

---

Q u o t e:


It is true that Cat DPS may be a little too high, but it is important to also highlight that this is not merely a matter of throwing in a nerf here or there. Adjusting Cat DPS is rather complicated because of the fact that it is a demanding spec to play well.

If we are to adjust Cat DPS, we will have to avoid doing it in a way that makes it a simple matter for the more adept players to adjust, but harder for those of less experience. It is not our intent to punish the less skilled players with a massive loss of damage output.

---

Good to hear, i think if you are to lower feral dps it would be wise to adjust the rotation a little, perhaps making savage roar not require combo points and possible no directional requirement on shred(would help pvp alot aswell) are both good changes with a possible % dps nerf.

---

Q u o t e:


http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/World-of-Ming/New-System-Better-Than-Old-Interview-with-Ensidia-PvE

There ya go.

---

A lot of statements there are just for the "lol". Can't really take this seriously.
On topic of DPS I find:

On the topic of your sick DPS, a lot of people have noticed that you regularly raid with 3 shadow priests, when most guilds only use one or so. Is there a particular reason for this?

Mek: On any fight with more than 1 target they are extremely good, especially before your DK's have access to the 239 Ulduar weapons. The gap has closed a bit now however and we really piled gear onto our 2 main dps DK's and they are putting out great numbers. All around though the survivablity and multi target aspect of Shadow Priests while also being ranged makes them amazingly good.

I think you take their comment out of context since they took Algalon as a measure to compare dps:

How do your damage meters for a typical fight usually go? Who carries Ensidia's DPS? Rogues, ferals, mages, or who? Didn't you bring 1 rogue to Algalon?

Mek: I guess algalon meter would be a pretty good way to compare. Feral 7.4k, Blood DK's, Rogues, Hunters about 6.8k, then it goes steadily down. Shadow priests are not that good on this fight since u talked about them earlier, they really need multi target to compete with the others. yeah only 1 rogue, it was mainly because he had 10 man algalon experience and the others didnt. enhancement shamans are just garbage though imo.

Mackzter: our feral is for sure the highest single target dps, then it's dk's, hunters, rogues, warlocks I think. shadow priests and mages do well aswell, if I wouldnt mention mages I would get *#!%#@*#%#@%!!#! by our french mage Ekye so.

There is no way you can take that seriously. Especially since they are looking at meters on 1 certain fight. Where the feral druid probably was buffed by every possible extra effect there was like Hysteria/TotT.

Also find it surprising they would rate Blood DKs higher than Rogues on single target fights. Interesting. I get the impression their rogue's are poorly skilled (something a guildie rogue of mine is also observing apparantly).

---

Q u o t e:
There is no way you can take that seriously. Especially since they are looking at meters on 1 certain fight. Where the feral druid probably was buffed by every possible extra effect there was like Hysteria/TotT.

Also find it surprising they would rate Blood DKs higher than Rogues on single target fights. Interesting. I get the impression their rogue's are poorly skilled (something a guildie rogue of mine is also observing apparantly).

---

Judging from Tun's Feral guide, im guessing he does get TotF rotations and Hysteria. I've witnessed myself on XT how much that can scew DPS fights. Even though, that doesn't mean the Feral wouldnt be top anyway.

It still counter productive to give a high value to this 'Ensidia input'. All the comments were off 1 fight, you can do that on other hardmodes and pick another person who is your 'top DPS'. If Ensidia want to really answer the 'whose your top DPS?' question, they should show us the WWS of each and every boss fight accross an entire Ulduar, who ever top of that should be number 1. I severly doubt its the Feral.

---

Q u o t e:
Simply because we lose combo points for it which basically means you can not keep SR/Rip up and totally making it impossible to do Ferocious Bites in between your rotation.

---

The dude said we'd lose our DPSing capabilities. What else would it mean? Still, we can interrupt just as well as a rogue or a DK, except we probably lose more DPS while doing that, you wrote the same thing but in a rude manner for no reason.

---

Q u o t e:
Says who? You? Your experience? The trolls?

---

My experience also says top 2 melee dps are rogue and feral. I wouldn't say ferals do more damage in general but neither did the dude you're flaming. The statement stands for itself, just don't see something in it that is not intended to be there.


My 2 cents about the topic though: feral DPS in itself is fine. It's hard but rewarding. The thing is that the OTHER DD classes are the problem, playing them to the max is either not rewarding enough (lower dps), too easy or both.
I like the concept of making it hard to do 110% but making it easy to do OK damage with all classes, like it is with ferals at the moment IMO. I also like the concept of balancing it so the hybrids could do competitive damage as long as they go that extra mile, while the pure DDs could do their max with less effort. Both of these have their flaws so I couldn't decide, so I totally understand the developers' situation with this issue. Don't worry though cause PvE hasn't ever been as balanced as nowadays, even if people disagree, it's never good enough and won't be.
I just don't want to see the feral gameplay be simplified cause most people can't be bothered to master it and they are not satisfied with the place in the world they deserve due to this.

EDIT: of course I am talking about PvE because I don't have that much experience in PvP, I agree that our rotation is not very ideal in PvP but it's not what the topic is about anyway.

Hrmm, 2nd blue on this sounds like they're cushioning us for changes in 3.2 (PTR isnt far off). I guess nerfs are inc. Though, 'simplication' doesnt necessarily mean bad. There are ways to make it noobfriendly whilst not actually nerfing the more competant players.

Even since beta, i was hopeful for a SR refresher so i could use FB more in my rotation. Since the huge Primal Gore buff to Rip, Fb is a bit of an awkward use. Especially seeming as without RNG on your side you can still mess up your rotation (for one- FB doesnt crit, or your yellow dont crit after and you dont get OoC. Thats not really about awesome skillz and palnning, more awkward.

anyway, just an example. I'm not saying it the way to go. im just saying Feral DPS is not perfect as it is, change doesnt necessarily mean less fun.