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Q u o t e:
...until the next content patch the tooltip will be incorrect.

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Those tooltips are a handful, ain't they?

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Q u o t e:


Those tooltips are a handful, ain't they?

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Apparently you can't grasp that tooltips can't be hotfixed.

Im not usually a super troll, but can I get banned now pls?

that would prolly make me unable to get higher rating in 2v2 more effectively that next week's unannounced hotfix to retribution.

A 20% reduction in any stat other than Stamina or Intelligence is pretty meaningless.

You won't even notice a 20% spirit/agility/strength reduction.

Its not like you will be fighting a Ret pala and suddenly notice less Crits or that your spells do less damage due to less spirit etc. Fights don't last long enough for that these days.

Really all this change has done is made Vindication a debatable talent in the Ret tree. Is there anything worth more dps now instead of taking this? It was debatable for PvE already, now for PvP...

Anyone trying to validate a reduction in spirit/agility/strength as being meaningful in pvp is sorely misguided about the state of pvp these days. The only time you see this argument being made is to try to sell the removal of Sta/Int from Vindication as a small change...it fundamentally nerfs the talent into meaninglessness (not Ret itself, but the talent).

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Q u o t e:
If there's any feedback (other than about tooltips) please post it here.

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since you redirected me to here

"The nerf to vindication is good to us

lets just read the post...

"If an class is so powerful among less skilled players that it dominates but totally ineffectual against the best players in the world whose skill is high enough to counter it, we don't think that makes it balanced. The game needs to be fun for everyone, not just the most elite players"

translation : ret is op vs bad players

translation: only bad players are whinning vs retribution

translation: if you start qq'iing about ret then you're a bad player . it is official. "~

[i]and no more non mediocre coffee at kostas for you Wryxian !!!! [/i](most will not understand this one)

Well, I welcome the change.

At the moment it actually feels like Retribution Paladins spoil the game for me, and many others so I'm glad Blizzard can also see this

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Q u o t e:
It seems that it felt like playing opposite a Retribution Paladin -- in lower Arena brackets especially -- essentially meant that you only really had around 60% of your health, since the Vindication talent took away 20% at the start and then Hammer of Wrath could be used when they had only 20% health left. We felt this was no longer a suitable situation, so last night we released a hot fix for Vindication, causing it to no longer reduce Stamina (or Intelligence for that matter) from the target. The talent's ability to reduce Spirit, Strength and Agility is still in place, however.

We feel this change will help to balance the ability out, whilst not causing a negative impact on Retribution Paladins in PvE content. This hotfix is live here in Europe already, and until the next content patch the tooltip will be incorrect.

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^------ Maybe you will talk with the paladins instead of ignoring the US paladins.

So what you are saying is that: Because Paladins can kill people in the lower Arena brackets it need to be nerfed?
While it might have needed a nerf (why i dont know) its also nerfed for the wrong reason: Your math is wrong and you are wrong about Hammer of Wrath. Not using this talent and hammer of wrath is better in the long run.

And lets say you in some magic way are able to say a good reason for this nerf (beside giving in to the people that cry rivers). Why are you removing int from it?

Oh well looks like the start of a repeated history :D

Edit: And because you said you hope for some feedback i would love to hear how you think. Im kinda sure you are just a CM and so on but please ask the devs how they are thinking.

Well tbh feedback is something you probably wouldn't want from most of the Ret community atleast :p

I dont mind the hotfix to vindication (i dont have any point's in it anyways). But i would like to ask a question about the hotfixing.

When you hotfix the talent's does that mean the changes have been tested and found to be reliable?, reason i ask is when we see a lot of change's to classes they are tested on the PTR's and the like's where we can give our opinions, these hotfixe's of late dont allow us to do that at all.

I dont mean to sound off but it's not very nice to have untested stuff put into our classes.

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Q u o t e:
Well tbh feedback is something you probably wouldn't want from most of the Ret community atleast :p

I dont mind the hotfix to vindication (i dont have any point's in it anyways). But i would like to ask a question about the hotfixing.

When you hotfix the talent's does that mean the changes have been tested and found to be reliable?, reason i ask is when we see a lot of change's to classes they are tested on the PTR's and the like's where we can give our opinions, these hotfixe's of late dont allow us to do that at all.

I dont mean to sound off but it's not very nice to have untested stuff put into our classes.

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Its been tested ;) Its being "balanced" back to the old version of it.

How does Vindication not affecting stamina not effect PVE? Surely it means every mob you face will have 20% more health? (well, technically more than 20% more health but it is too early to do proper maths). If it doesn't affect stam or int it's really next to useless now...

I was just getting used to my Uber Pally for levelling (lvl 31) but it seems I just missed the gravy train and the nerfs are flowing (following the Exorcism nerf last patch)... Back to my ever-nerfed Warrior or Mage then ;p Knew I shoulda carried on the the Deathknight...

Better fix: Reduce the chance it is applied/duration. It is dispellable after all.

Alternatively - give us a way of dealing with healers that isn't on a 1 minute cooldown? (or 40 secs talented)

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Q u o t e:
How does Vindication not affecting stamina not effect PVE? Surely it means every mob you face will have 20% more health? (well, technically more than 20% more health but it is too early to do proper maths). If it doesn't affect stam or int it's really next to useless now...

I was just getting used to my Uber Pally for levelling (lvl 31) but it seems I just missed the gravy train and the nerfs are flowing (following the Exorcism nerf last patch)... Back to my ever-nerfed Warrior or Mage then ;p Knew I shoulda carried on the the Deathknight...

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not sure if it is still like this but in the past many mobs didnt had atrributes, their AP was a direct value not related to str or agil and their HP was not related to any stamina value

Since reducing Str/Agi/Spi is essentially just an AP debuff, why not just make vindication have the same effect as imp.demo shout and be done with it?

At least then it would work in PvE (Bosses are all immune to vindication as it is).

if the -spi aspect needs compensating, then add in Curse of Tongues effect, or something to it.

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Q u o t e:
Better fix: Reduce the chance it is applied/duration. It is dispellable after all.

Alternatively - give us a way of dealing with healers that isn't on a 1 minute cooldown? (or 40 secs talented)

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You dont kill that healer within one HoJ? lol

Bosses are immune to it and even if it do work they are based on pure health and not on stamina.

Well; you could have done it just so that it didn't work on players, anymore.. You did that with Exorcism and Hand of Reckoning, as well, so.. Why not with Vindication?

I liked the debuff on stamina, because it had some, though not much, influence on the target's health Vindication saved me a lot of time while questing, due to this. Also, in groups, vindication now isn't a debuff, anymore, for the instance mobs.. It's now merely damage reduction on the tank. I'm sorry; I just don't like it. Of course, I've heard a lot of complaints about vindication, while it really doesn't even do that much, since everything is skill/level based, anyway, and I think this is just a way to make every PvP player happy, while not actually doing anything to retribution to cut the power, somewhat. (Like spreading the same damage over more abilities, or shorter cooldowns.)

Ah, well; it's not really that bad.. It's just that it's something that used to be convenient for us, and now.. Isn't, so much, anymore. Of course; Leather (Rogues and cats) will still be screwed, as the 20% debuff on agility might just equal a single sunder armour strike denbuff, but hey; yeah..
It was fun and convenient for levelling. It's still semi-useful, since it's passive, but only semi-useful, and debatable if it's even worth two talent points, anymore.

(I don't do PvP.)