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Q u o t e:
The ansver -> 2) Currently, hunter dps might be a little low, but we're not 100% convinced yet.
Exatly as happen with BM over nerf some time ago, couple weeks after patch "opps, we might bit over nerfed BM" .
If it is really vital, ok, try balance around PVP. But instead picking best PVP players from different servers and making them clash against each other. As devs got ego problems, because they think that they know all classes well and they wouldn't go that low and start accepting sugesstions from players. Every released pach f***ed up something (no, i'm not talkinig about only hunter class).

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Aye, they did nerf hunters too much (or buffed other classes too much/didn't nerf other classes enough. Depends on how you look at it). And it's starting to show quite clearly too.
But consider this:
10 classes with 15 (random number, btw) abilities each that are useful for PvP.
Meaning a change to 1 ability for 1 class needs to take how it will affect the 149 other abilities into consideration.
Not to mention the number of possible ways each skill can be used, not only by itself, but combined with the 14 other abilities of that class (like stacking Scorpid poison with Viper Sting) and glyph effects and scaling (and in our case, pet abilities).
End result: F*** ups will occur.

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Q u o t e:
Please correct me if i'm wrong. In real world that is called to experementing, poking here and there, without having any clear idea.

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Exactly. And that's the only way it can be done. Theory only helps up until a certain point.
Which is why they have PTR's. Unfortunately, PTR's rely on feedback from players. Which means all kinds of biased whines and comments overclouding serious feedback.
End result: Yup. More f*** ups.

All we can do is continue to explain and show why changes are needed and hope they'll eventually fix it.
I can understand why many lose their patience and start yelling and laying blame, but I don't really see the point. Especially when someone comes with a constructive thread (no, not this one) and ppl insist on venting their anger there instead of simply agreeing.

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Q u o t e:


I'll happily explain the logic.

Panic: OMFG HUTNERS ARE BROKEN!! FIX NOW BLIZZ!!!11! MIGHT ASWELL DELETE CLASS WE HAVE NO USE AND NOTHING WORKS AND EVERYTHING IS CRAP!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!111 I'M GUN REROLL DK/RET/WHATEVER BECASE YU LOV DEM AND HATES OUR CLASS!!!

Exactly what would be the point of that?
If there's no indication of change to the hunter class, there not much we can do about it except explain why we need a buff and let the numbers (like those you posted) back it up.
Claiming Blizz are absolute f***ing morons with no clue what-so-ever, is the wrong way.
Lolkek's thread, although somewhat angry, is more the right way to go.

Pure QQ has never gotten hunters fixed before, and I seriously doubt it will now.

Also, you have a weird definition of trolling.

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I can only remember twice when hunters has united in QQ and that was about the retardness of deadzone and about how badly hunters performed in arena on WoLK beta. It didn't take long for Blizzard to fix both those issues, but second thing has since then been "normalized" by other classes QQ. So while it sucks i think it's common knowledge that massQQ is the only way to communicate with devs of WoW.

I find the arena comment is worrying and it makes me wonder if such ideas filter across to pve as well. I may not do arena and only do random pvp as fillers for pve but I do recognise the importance that such things are more fairly balanced for those that enjoy it.

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Q u o t e:
Hunters are betters in 5s than 2s. It's really challenging to have every class or spec have the same representation in small teams as large, which is one of the reasons we offer multiple sizes. Recently the community seems to be focusing on 2s even more than 3s. We are taking some steps to make sure the larger brackets are as rewarding as the smaller ones. (I'm not saying it's a goal that some classes are only viable for some brackets. But it is nice that if you aren't as good for some brackets, you always have the others to fall back on.) "

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More to the point read that last part again and realise what it could imply. Its like saying, "Its ok if you have low priority for going to 10 man raids because you have 25 as well where there are more slots available."

The main reasons 2v2 is so popular is its easy to set up. You only need to rely on 1 person, its the most logical conclusion that the majority of people like things easy were possible. People are now so good at 2v2, and so many do 2v2, it logically makes it more attractive as well. Its a cycle that effects itself, as more join in it gets better, therefore it looks better to anyone joining. Maybe some changes to 3v3 and 5v5 will help but it does not fix the real problem it merely covers it up, its not acceptable.

The latest representations do not look good, it might not be 100% of everything, but I do find it rather disconcerting when I saw that the hunter representation looked lower than I expected at the top end. It tells me that if you want to do well then do not play hunter in arenas, it tells everyone else that sees it the same thing as well. I noticed that when the priest/rogue combo got to high in representation changes were made, well what about the opposite?

Personally I would love to see the full data, its all available off the armory, it just takes ages to sort out.

Is it really down to dps? if you ask me its all the unkilleble healers who need to be knocked down peg after peg.

Honistly though i have 30k hp a hybrid spec with fk all dmg yet i can still kill any melee 1v1?? but with a full nuke setup i couldnt drop a priest?. Nerf the healers o0

Sv hunters dmg is still ok atm.. the cc and survival is all that sux, warriors although allways a pain to hunters did need the buffs (we just didnt need the nerfs)

Copy of my MMO post:

Not going to comment on GC's post, because i'll start saying nasty things (and likely undeserved)
As a survival hunter for the playstyle, I miss some key features these days.
I do a lot of bg's, but no arena expert.
In Ulduar we're still learning the bosses.
That's where this is coming from:

First of: I'm not asking for more damage, I feel a bit weaker in raids but still ok.

In pvp it's about not getting in ranged mainly.
And of course: dying to the damage taken there...

My suggestions, mainly Survival orientated since I played that for years now:

1. general hunter: make deterrence lose the 'facing opponent' part, AND let us use melee strikes while in deterrence.
This should allow for getting away, since it's an absolute weird logic that a hunter can't turn his back on a melee to run away.
All hunters can wingclip than, survival can counterattack.
(deterrence-counterattack was a standard SV combo back in the days...)

2. SV: Increase the parry rating from talents from the stupid 3% to something like 5-10-15%. Again: making counterattack actually something we might want to specc.
Of course this would also increase our defenses as Survival... what's in a name.

3. Surefooted: 30% less time snared is not enough. Add stunned to it, or give it a passive speed bonus. 30% resist, something... just make it better.

4. SV: let LnL proc from all traps again.
With black arrow there is not much influence on raid dps. All we would get is a proc from a trap set down before fight, nothing gamebreaking.
In pvp we would be allowed to use all traps again.
Funny actually: the patch where you promised us MORE trap utility, you actually gave us LESS...

5. Make traps less avoidable. Instant triggering at least, and yes: make them unseen again.

6. Unlink Black arrow from ES. Seriously: you create a stupid arrow we didn't need (the same effect could be created with the trap launcher and refreshing immolation trap ideas), and than you force us to specc it in pvp where we can't use it?

7. Let pets share resilience with the hunter. Self explanatory and long overdue.

8. THE revolution: auto shots while moving !

These are my 8 changes that won't affect damage at all, or hardly.
But I think they would allow for a more fun playing experience for those who specced Survival for the playstyle, not the recent buffed naked dps.

For the Beastmasters I don't know what to suggest, but they need help.
MM: give them more mana, think that would solve most issues.
As said: not my speccs and I don't want to comment on things I haven't experienced first hand enough.

For raids (copy of another post) these 'could' be usefull changes:

To be honest: in raids i think we do ok.
Not the real top if others do their best, but still good.
And if you look at meters: look at damage done. A mage will do more dps any day, but not always end up with more damage done. Often they top both... Very fight dependant in Ulduar, more than ever, which is a good thing. I like seeing different classes top in different fights.

I like raiding, and I like Ulduar as far as I have seen it (at about 6 bosses or so, downed iron Counsil this week and going on the cat lady tonight).
Personally I don't mind using aspect of nature, putting down traps and thus nerfing black arrow damage, and all that.
I don't have to be top damage, but a pure dps'ing hunter should be up there with the best. And frankly: that should be a MM, not a survival. not according to what the trees are designed for.
I'm happy I can trap and cc again, handle adds, MD, have fun...

My suggestions for raiding:
1. LnL proc from both black arrow and serpent sting.
2. as mentioned: auto shot while moving, likely the most important pve and pvp buff ever, if not in damage than surely in playstyle.
3. create some survival only raidbuff again, replenishment is not 'special' enough.

First only could well solve any dps issues SV might be seeing now, little as they are.
Second is a revolution with heavy pvp impact and some boost in pve mobile fights (as most tend to be).
Third is merely cream on the cake. I like being in synergy with my raid, heck I even took point of no escape and entrapment in my raid build because of the many adds handling. At least for now, till we cope better with it all. yes, a dps nerf for me but it helps so i'm happy doing that.
So I would like some raid buff, our raid is already asking about the MM buff...


ps. Hi ceebo, how is the grass these days? Mooooo.

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Q u o t e:

History repeats it's self again, expansion gets ,out all is fine, few patches on and devs take axe hunters.
That i was wondering, what happend to my crits, before patch i used crit much more, now it is plain crap.
So, here is the ansver, our shot mechanics got nerfed, becausde "we did too much damage in Naxx".
As it is now, some times i don't crit at all and sometimes i crit 5-6 times in row.
Glad i lost interest play this game just bit before pach got rolled out, tired of this lottery.
Here is the official GC ansver, don't expect buffs, from now on every thing gets only worse.
Edit: As i'm MM, how the hell i should get mana regen from Rapid Recuperation if don't crit at all. Me wonders, with wich part of body blizzard devs thinking.

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Having more than 23% crit allows you to crit more often....

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Q u o t e:
My suggestions for raiding:
1. LnL proc from both black arrow and serpent sting.

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Some quick math, assuming overlapping LnL procs stack and a 6% probability on proc per tick:

20 * 0.06 = 1.2 procs per minute from serpent sting
10 * 0.06 = 0.6 procs per minute.

Independence of events makes the procs additive, thus we get 1.8 procs per minute which is close to the 2 PPM we had when LnL procced of sting only with 10% probability.

Overall a good idea but LnL proc rate needs to be buffed.

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Q u o t e:
2. as mentioned: auto shot while moving, likely the most important pve and pvp buff ever, if not in damage than surely in playstyle.

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I can think of some scenarios where it gives leverage over melee but Ulduar fights are annoying to ranged DPS too damn much. Agreed, make autoshots while moving.

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Q u o t e:
3. create some survival only raidbuff again, replenishment is not 'special' enough.

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That'd go against "Bring the player not the class" if we get a unique raidbuff. Can't see EW going raidwide ever again.

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Q u o t e:
Blue quoted wall of text

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Why quote the entire post? Could've just said "HI GUYSE IM A BLUE AND THIS THREAD IS NOW TAGGED".

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Q u o t e:


Having more than 23% crit allows you to crit more often....

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Pardon me Shosuro but with talents i have over 33% (MM, Lethal Shots+Master Marksman). Ain't good, crits coming out of my Nestinway god knows how. Clearly worse than before patch. Actually Death trinket i bought for testing (havent done any Oracles rep), i was wondering, what happens if i get over 33%. Slammed in trinket, lost 148AP and nothing happen.

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Q u o t e:
ps. Hi ceebo, how is the grass these days? Mooooo.

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Blizz wiped their arse on it

My own thoughts on the matter.

Hunters seem to suffer from a serious problem: Simplistic gameplay. It's actually fairly easy, almost regardless of spec, to learn the essential routines for a Hunter, both in PvE and in PvP. Once you have your shot rotation (PvE) and kite/CC/nuke sequences (PvP) worked out, the actual execution of them is relatively straightforward, so while you still have to watch out for fight gimmicks or skilled opponents what you have to do to function as well as the class allows isn't complicated.

Now you might say this makes the class good. Well, it does and it doesn't. On the plus side, it means the class is very accessible. On the minus side, it means that it's not possible to rise above a certain level. There just aren't any extra moves that can be deployed, no matter how good you are. Since Lich King launched, that level has generally been about right, but now (in PvP particularly) it's looking a little low.

What I would like to see is the introduction of shots and mechanics that add power to the class, but that take lots of skill or setup to execute. An example of this type of mechanic would be the shattercombo that mages have. So, I'm talking about a long-cast-time-very-high-damage shot, or an increase on the buff to Steady Shot when target is dazed so we see concussive shot being used to set up that buff, or an 'oil trap' that buffs the damage of the next explosive shot or immolation trap, or BM-only moves that had some special effect in conjunction with some of the pet special abilities...

Just throwing ideas out at random here, but you can see the common theme. They would be moves that allowed only the most expert Hunters to benefit, so that if they get high ratings/damage numbers in Arena/Raids people would see them as skilled, rather than saying they were 'facerolling' to those achievements. They would not affect the balance of the majority (except they'd have a few more funky special effects to play with), but would help at the top end, which is where the help really seems to be needed.

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Q u o t e:
I've been playing hunters for 2 years now. I've never had problems getting into groups, i've also been in good guilds that appreciate good hunters. So from a pve standpoint i have 0 complaints. Really.

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Yes hamburger your gear shows us what you have.

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Q u o t e:

Yes hamburger your gear shows us what you have.

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This is my 3rd hunter, that ive gotten to 80 a week ago. I've never raided at 60, but i've raided T4 and T5, 2 years of it. I know what i'm talking about. Now stop being a wanker and remember we're all on the same boat.

Sorry i'm really aggressive on after Ghostcrawlers post.

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Q u o t e:

Pardon me Shosuro but with talents i have over 33% (MM, Lethal Shots+Master Marksman). Ain't good, crits coming out of my Nestinway god knows how. Clearly worse than before patch. Actually Death trinket i bought for testing (havent done any Oracles rep), i was wondering, what happens if i get over 33%. Slammed in trinket, lost 148AP and nothing happen.

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To get a string of 5-6 crits in a row you will need more than 23% crit (taken off your armory profile). Nothing has changed regarding crit strike rating in the last patches.

I am not going to comment on your gear but it's not likely that you will not see a string of crits with your current gear. Look at my profile and see the difference in crit.

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Q u o t e:
My own thoughts on the matter.

Hunters seem to suffer from a serious problem: Simplistic gameplay. It's actually fairly easy, almost regardless of spec, to learn the essential routines for a Hunter, both in PvE and in PvP. Once you have your shot rotation (PvE) and kite/CC/nuke sequences (PvP) worked out, the actual execution of them is relatively straightforward, so while you still have to watch out for fight gimmicks or skilled opponents what you have to do to function as well as the class allows isn't complicated.

Now you might say this makes the class good. Well, it does and it doesn't. On the plus side, it means the class is very accessible. On the minus side, it means that it's not possible to rise above a certain level. There just aren't any extra moves that can be deployed, no matter how good you are. Since Lich King launched, that level has generally been about right, but now (in PvP particularly) it's looking a little low.

What I would like to see is the introduction of shots and mechanics that add power to the class, but that take lots of skill or setup to execute. An example of this type of mechanic would be the shattercombo that mages have. So, I'm talking about a long-cast-time-very-high-damage shot, or an increase on the buff to Steady Shot when target is dazed so we see concussive shot being used to set up that buff, or an 'oil trap' that buffs the damage of the next explosive shot or immolation trap, or BM-only moves that had some special effect in conjunction with some of the pet special abilities...

Just throwing ideas out at random here, but you can see the common theme. They would be moves that allowed only the most expert Hunters to benefit, so that if they get high ratings/damage numbers in Arena/Raids people would see them as skilled, rather than saying they were 'facerolling' to those achievements. They would not affect the balance of the majority (except they'd have a few more funky special effects to play with), but would help at the top end, which is where the help really seems to be needed.

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Yeah that would be real nice.. perhaps succesfull steadyshots put up a stacking debuff to a max of 5 stacks. When at 5 the next special (apart from steady) has a 25% dmg increase.. ofc the stacks be on a timer so if u dont get off any steady shots within a certain time the debuff fades. That would be some good unsuspected burst potential, although not good upfront burst.

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Q u o t e:


To get a string of 5-6 crits in a row you will need more than 23% crit (taken off your armory profile). Nothing has changed regarding crit strike rating in the last patches.

I am not going to comment on your gear but it's not likely that you will not see a string of crits with your current gear. Look at my profile and see the difference in crit.

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My gear, it is pre raid gear, all what i got from HC, rep, plus gloves i bought from AH (on second grand widow run they actually dropped). I could change all possible enchants to AGI but all what i got was working before. If you say, that nothing was changed. Then i just started suking over night. After patch i had respecc (ditched aimed shot) and change some glyphs, because i couldn't get over 2300DPS on test dummy, no matter what i did. And pre patch 2600-2700 wasn't problem. So something got changed, not complaining about DPS, now i'm doing more but with much less crits. First VoA old boss run after patch i was second with 3100 DPS, first was SV hunter, with much better gear. Ah, well, doesn't matter, fed up with this game any ways. Buy the way, if you look my achievements, plague quater and VoA old boss are down for me, despite that i got no achievements.
If we talking about your profile then yes, difference is very high. And to get tthere in need do a lot of raiding.