he explosive shot nerf has to be the dumbest change yet. the MAIN survival skill getting close to a 20% overall nerf of the skill which can get partial resists and be blocked... why?

OK for PvP, Blizzard stated that they were happy with hunter dmg, but thought that the stun on explosive shot was oped, so they removed it. now i find it funny that they reduce the dmg on it while hunters are still gemming for spell pen even though they are supposed to be physical dmg class. and any class wearing a shield can also block damage from it too

For pve, hunter survival dmg is pretty even with most classes, Mages are still able to top us, and so are fury warriors. Then we get a nerf to a shot that is about 40-45% of hunter dmg in their rotation with out buffing the other shots to compensate. I seriously hope these dont go live, or survival is dead.


the dps loss in numbers, taken from elitist jerks:


Explosive Shot: Base damage lowered by 10%. Attack power scaling reduced by 12.5%.
So, based on the GC quote, my estimate for dps loss from the new explosive shot nerf is the following.

Current base dmg is 428-496. 10% dmg reduction will be 429 * .9 to 496 * .9 = 386.1 to 446.4
Attack power scaling is .14. .14 * 87.5 = 0.1225

Avg base dmg will now be (386.1 + 446.4) / 2 = 416.25
Assuming 7k ap on tooltip, new avg non-crit dmg per tick will be:

(7000 * .1225 + 416.25) = 1273.75

Assuming 63% crit rate, total adjustment comes to 222.8% on my sheet (K109 in calculations). New modified tick amount is 1273.75 * 2.228% = 2837.915 resulting in total modified dmg (K113) of 2837.915 * 3 = 8513.745 (old was 10655).

Without factoring in LnL procs, we should be getting 10 explosive shots per minute (60s). This should result in the following (again, appreciate check on math).

Old (explosive dmg / time):
10655 * 10 cds = 106550 dmg / 60s = 1775.83 dps

New (explosive dmg / time):
8513.745 * 10 cds = 85137.45 dmg / 60s = 1418.96 dps

1775.83 - 1418.96 = 356.87 dps lost with explosive shot changes (without LnL procs factored in). Using Sylvand's breakdown of LnL changes, the following dps loss will be on top of the loss noted earlier (75.81).


Explosive shot loss for LnL procs (old modified - new modified)
(10655 - 8514) * 2 extra explosives = 2141 * 2 = 4282 dmg * 4 procs per 10 minutes lost = 17128 / 600s = 28.55 dps lost

Consequently, total losses from BA LnL changes and Explosive shot changes comes to:
356.87 (explosive) + 75.81 (Lnl) + 28.55 (explosive + LnL) = 461.23 dps

Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

The mechanics of survival are changing too much for you to get hyped up about one change. Wait till everything is finished and ready to go live, and then analyse it as a whole, before you start the QQ threads again.

I think all of us, devs. and players alike, could do with a break from the all the crying.

Apparently the "nerf" is just informing about the stealth nerf that was implemented a few weeks ago.

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Q u o t e:
Apparently the "nerf" is just informing about the stealth nerf that was implemented a few weeks ago.

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can you confirm that?

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Q u o t e:


can you confirm that?

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it is confirmed, the only thing that was new was the base dmg which is really slightly nerfed

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Q u o t e:



it is confirmed, the only thing that was new was the base dmg which is really slightly nerfed

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phew of that, could you please post a link where it is confirmed? (wasnt up on the mainpage on mmo anywhere, and i could find it fast on the us forums (i presume no blue posts on our). Would be appreciated. =)

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Q u o t e:
Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

The mechanics of survival are changing too much for you to get hyped up about one change. Wait till everything is finished and ready to go live, and then analyse it as a whole, before you start the QQ threads again.

I think all of us, devs. and players alike, could do with a break from the all the crying.

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Did the thought that it might have little to do with survival dps but rather the skill of the rest of your guild's skill at player their classes ever hit your mind?

Nerfing an attack that does around 40% of a class' damage is simply stupid, especially after nerfing two of that class' talent trees into oblivion, making them useless for PvE, all in the name of satisfying the people QQ'ing about a hunter's PvP damage.

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Q u o t e:


Did the thought that it might have little to do with survival dps but rather the skill of the rest of your guild's skill at player their classes ever hit your mind?

Nerfing an attack that does around 40% of a class' damage is simply stupid, especially after nerfing two of that class' talent trees into oblivion, making them useless for PvE, all in the name of satisfying the people QQ'ing about a hunter's PvP damage.

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i love you

exactly what i thought

in other words sv removed from pve specs the 10 reduce to base dmg doesnt hurt , but the scaling reduce is just ridiculous

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Q u o t e:

it is confirmed, the only thing that was new was the base dmg which is really slightly nerfed

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I am not sure where you get that from mate... But GCs post here (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443525832&sid=1&pageNo=3#57) indicates different...

*QQ begin*
I've accepted that my hunter will not stay SV after the patch. Yes, I find it alot more fun than the other specs! Trap dancing, waiting for LnL procs and fitting the weired cooldowns into the rotaion was really something different than spamming Steady Shot! And yes, it was a bit OP and some nerf was expected.

But I think the devs have used their nerfbats a bit too much now, especially since the one ability that would level things out is not going to make it (the refreshment of immolation trap effect from ES). Alot of people are saying that the internal cooldown on LnL has been removed, but if that was the case, I am wondering why this has not been reported in the PTR notes. I highly doubt so. To be honest, this looks more like the mistake with BM than a deserved adjustment of numbers...

Imo, the original plans for the changes to SV hunters were acceptable - but they were rather dependant on the ability to keep immolation trap effect up together with BA. Now when this will not happen, I think they should make some changes to the other modifications, like:
- Remove BA from the trap timer to make LnL have a procrate of 2ppm (no that is NOT an unreasonable rate)
- Remove internal cooldown on ES
- Make LnL still proc from Serpent Sting ticks (but keep the internal cooldown)
- Change BA numbers to compensate for a larger portion of the loss from LnL becoming a rarity, immolation trap being out of the question in the SV rotation and ES nerfed twice since 3.0.8.

I realize that the latest ES nerf indicates that Blizzard disagrees on the content of this post . And no, 16 extra bag slots is not a buff, neither in PvP or in PvE. But I am still hoping that they will make something out of the changes to ammo mechanics that they once announced. Making arrows stack 1000 instead of 200 is hardly anything to shout "YAY" at, if that is all!
*QQ end*

Now I will enjoy playing a SV hunter for the last weeks until I decide if I should go BM or MM...

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Q u o t e:
Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

The mechanics of survival are changing too much for you to get hyped up about one change. Wait till everything is finished and ready to go live, and then analyse it as a whole, before you start the QQ threads again.

I think all of us, devs. and players alike, could do with a break from the all the crying.

---

That's funny.. in my guild SV hunters dont go better than 6-7th spot. SV hunters dominate in PvE? Eh no!
And i aint only saying this because my DPS sucks, im saying this because of all the lists and meters i've read.

We do dominate in PvE on many fights, im usually always on top. tho i think, as the author said, the nerf might be a bit over the top. But we'll just have to wait and see what happens :)

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Q u o t e:
Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

The mechanics of survival are changing too much for you to get hyped up about one change. Wait till everything is finished and ready to go live, and then analyse it as a whole, before you start the QQ threads again.

I think all of us, devs. and players alike, could do with a break from the all the crying.

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Locks and mages (and in some way DK) are costantely over my dps (and other hunter) by a long way.
Locks in particular can outdamage us by 50% on a few bosses, and are at least 20% up...

Actually we are in place 3 or 4 as dps... equally geared locks and mage are way better.

Not a rant, we were on top for a while, i can stay in third place now, but i don't understand the additional nerf in 3.1, may be it balances SV-MM-BM, but we will lose against other classes too....

We will see when 3.1 will be ready.

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Q u o t e:


Did the thought that it might have little to do with survival dps but rather the skill of the rest of your guild's skill at player their classes ever hit your mind?

Nerfing an attack that does around 40% of a class' damage is simply stupid, especially after nerfing two of that class' talent trees into oblivion, making them useless for PvE, all in the name of satisfying the people QQ'ing about a hunter's PvP damage.

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Mate they simply dont know what to do and nerf the easiest target ...

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Q u o t e:
Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

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What a fake post. It is amazing that people would post this kind of garbage. It is truly regrettable that there are people here who are completely unaware of the state of the game, and thus may believe you. Truly regrettable.

You have just seen what a disingenuous person would claim. Now see the truth. Please excuse my use of capital letters.

---------------------------->THE FOLLOWING IS A SCOREBOARD FROM THE TOP DPS'ERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. ALL CLASSES. ALL REGIONS. ALL RAID ENCOUNTERS.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/dps/all/6/0/3

NOT ONLY THERE IS NOT A SINGLE HUNTER TOPPING ANY OF THESE ENCOUNTERS, BUT IN FACT IN MANY OF THE TOP SCOREBOARDS THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE, YEAH YOU HEARD ME RIGHT, NOT EVEN ONE HUNTER, NOT A SINGLE ONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA.

----------------------------> THE FOLLOWING IS A DPS AVERAGE SCOREBOARD SHOWING HOW CLASSES ARE DOING IN ALL CURRENT CONTENT BOSS ENCOUNTERS

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/6

You guessed it. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE HUNTER, NOT ONE, TOPPING ANY OF THESE ENCOUNTERS. See Death Knights, Warlocks and Mages top the class average damage meters.

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Q u o t e:
Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

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That statement doesn't really prove anything for the hunter class, but only for the hunters in your guild. Can't really compare with the hunter community since we don't know what gear your guildmates have, and how good players they are.

But imo. hunters should be in the top on DPS, but not only for SV, but for all speccs, since hunters imo. are a pure DPS class.

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Q u o t e:
Yes, we did nerf the damage of Explosive Shot a little more. After many of the changes to locks, DKs, warriors and the rest, we felt SV hunters were too high. MM may still be a little too low. BM seems on target at the moment, but we had a few bugs in new pet abilities especially that was making it hard to get accurate numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean about Survival compexity. Are you talking about the shots themselves or the organization of the tree? I think some players are still thinking they are supposed to trap dance in PvE.

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(this post was from GC about Explosive Shot nerf, link: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443525832&sid=1&pageNo=3#57 )

Apparently, in PvE we would dominate all the other classes if we didnt recieve this nerf. Atleast give a better LNL procrate for PvE then, current implementation on PTR wil make it worse then live by relying only on serpent sting ticks.

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Q u o t e:
Survival are not evenly matched in PvE, we dominate. At least in my guild, the two SV hunters (myself included) are consistently in the top 3. This wouldn't be possible if we were balanced.

The mechanics of survival are changing too much for you to get hyped up about one change. Wait till everything is finished and ready to go live, and then analyse it as a whole, before you start the QQ threads again.

I think all of us, devs. and players alike, could do with a break from the all the crying.

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Lol a skilled mage and skilled fury warrior can beat a skilled hunter in a tank and spank anyday.

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Q u o t e:


I am not sure where you get that from mate... But GCs post here (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443525832&sid=1&pageNo=3#57) indicates different...

*QQ begin*
I've accepted that my hunter will not stay SV after the patch. Yes, I find it alot more fun than the other specs! Trap dancing, waiting for LnL procs and fitting the weired cooldowns into the rotaion was really something different than spamming Steady Shot! And yes, it was a bit OP and some nerf was expected.

But I think the devs have used their nerfbats a bit too much now, especially since the one ability that would level things out is not going to make it (the refreshment of immolation trap effect from ES). Alot of people are saying that the internal cooldown on LnL has been removed, but if that was the case, I am wondering why this has not been reported in the PTR notes. I highly doubt so. To be honest, this looks more like the mistake with BM than a deserved adjustment of numbers...

Imo, the original plans for the changes to SV hunters were acceptable - but they were rather dependant on the ability to keep immolation trap effect up together with BA. Now when this will not happen, I think they should make some changes to the other modifications, like:
- Remove BA from the trap timer to make LnL have a procrate of 2ppm (no that is NOT an unreasonable rate)
- Remove internal cooldown on ES
- Make LnL still proc from Serpent Sting ticks (but keep the internal cooldown)
- Change BA numbers to compensate for a larger portion of the loss from LnL becoming a rarity, immolation trap being out of the question in the SV rotation and ES nerfed twice since 3.0.8.

I realize that the latest ES nerf indicates that Blizzard disagrees on the content of this post . And no, 16 extra bag slots is not a buff, neither in PvP or in PvE. But I am still hoping that they will make something out of the changes to ammo mechanics that they once announced. Making arrows stack 1000 instead of 200 is hardly anything to shout "YAY" at, if that is all!
*QQ end*

Now I will enjoy playing a SV hunter for the last weeks until I decide if I should go BM or MM...

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im surprised i yust notice this post now, i pretty much agree about LNL its too low procrate in PvE if the ¨PTR changes go live.

I'm really not at liberty to say exactly what I think of this gem on this forum, but I'm sure most hunters get the idea.

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Q u o t e:
Atleast give a better LNL procrate for PvE then, current implementation on PTR wil make it worse then live by relying only on serpent sting ticks.

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LnL will have 1 proc/minute on PTR, as opposed to 2 PPM on live (trap dancing or not). So nerfing the 2nd most significant SV talent by 50% is the way to go. I'm sure.

Expecting this 3.1 patch note:
* Fixed a bug where Hunters could do damage.

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Q u o t e:
Lol a skilled mage and skilled fury warrior can beat a skilled hunter in a tank and spank anyday.

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None of which have outDPSd me on patchwerk in my guild since wotlk began.