So after severe nerfs to the mages main damage tree and buffs to other ranged classes the question has on several occations been posed: "What is the mages role in TBC?"

After several hours of analyzing the changes to spell damage coefficients, the raid utility of the classes fighting for ranged DPS spots in a raid, and the ability to fill multiple roles in a raid the solution was quite obvious. We're there to conjure water/food for the raid.

New conceptual artwork of mage tier 4:
http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9811/11/water.boy/waterboy.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9907/07/isaac.hayes/chef.jpg
((The set bonuses are as of yet not confirmed, but rumors has it they will decrease the cost of conjuring food/water by 1% depending on what set you chose as 3-piece bonus, the 5-piece bonus will give you a 1% chance to get double the amount of food/water when conjuring))

So finally mages will have a role in TBC raiding. But wait... can't you just conjure all the water/food needed before the raid and be gone with the mage before the instance starts?

Well, here is where the brilliance of blizzard comes into the picture. Apparently the new concept of conjured items disaprearing when logging into one of the new arenas was so great that this will also be applied to endgame raid instances. So you'd HAVE to bring a mage inside the instance to conjure said food/water to have it availible to you at all. Coupled with the complete removal of all vendor bought food and beverage (or just making it unuseable inside instances) this will once and for all ensure mages get a spot for these highly sought after raid spots. But wait... can't a mage just conjure everything the raid needs in 5 minutes, so he can then get kicked and replaced by a class that will actually be useful?

No no, not at all! Blizzard, in it's infinite wisdom, has already forseen this problem. Water and food of any rank will now only be conjured 1 at a time, and the mana cost is 100% of your total mana bar. This way you need to place the mage in the same group as a few shadow priests for the mana regen, otherwise the mage would have to drink that 1 water he makes just to be able to conjure another (this concept being called the norwegian infinity machine).

See it all works out in the end, and now i hope you all also understand the role of the mage in TBC raiding.

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Q u o t e:
Yeah sure, you AGAIN are nothing more than vendors. I am reading this for one year on mages forum and all that time in my raid group mages and rogues tips the dmg with ease.

Eaven if I did not try BC mages, I am sure that again they will be on top with rogues, and again hord of whiners will post things like that.

I can find some viable probles fighting some classes - manausers. But this silly whining that mages are broken in raids is just children crying.

Every mage, from nice guilds on my serves, are convinced that wit maximum attention they can compete on single target dmg with AQ 40 rogues.

We, other dmg classes, hunters, locks can not came eaven to 80% of their dmg burning all our popentials.

So pls this crying in PvE, which is going for over a year is just stupid

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While I agree that whining is not nice to read, mage damage is definitely going down in TBC and other DPS's damage is definitely going up. It's not rocket science, just compare the talents and it's pretty obvious.

Even more so as Blizzard themselves have pretty much said they lowered mage damage a bit and might lower it even more.

As to 'crying about PVE', it's a bit more complicated than that:

Mages are incredibly squishy characters and are relying on half-way working escape spells in PVP. Lowering our damage while not actually making us less squishy (yes we get more HP in TBC, but everybody else gets more extra HP and gets a relatively larger damage increase than mages as well in TBC) is not actually making the mage a more attractive choice.

And that includes in raids. I'm happy they're making locks, hunters and rogues more wanted in instances. I really am. I just think it's not too nice for us mages to now be mediocre at everything while still being uber squishy.

I have a friend on the beta, he's a rogue, he told me that his chance to crit is lower then before beta.
I dont think we'll have any problems being one of the highest dps classes, the only class iam a bit worried about is the hunters.
From what i've seen they deal higher substained damage now.

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Q u o t e:
I can understand mages concerns, and as it looks like, from PvE perspective that your dmg will be nerfed some extent. Also I really do not see that great dmg bust of hunters and locks dmg in BC. I can see some furry warior geting buff but they will have problems with aggro.

to conclude I personaly think that you will still be able to do great dmg with arcane specc...you get 150% crits with ice, and still think that will be on the top of dmg charts, but not with that big advantage over hunters and locks.

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I think you're wrong. I think mage damage will be just about equal to locks in damage come TBC, with hunters, rogues and furry warriors scoring higher.

This due to talent changes and the need for hunters/rogues to have a viable raid position. It's only logical that Blizzard wants to make sure the non-utility classes (rogues/hunters) have a role in raids. In TBC that role will be do-best-dps.

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Q u o t e:

or eaven if I am wrong and your nerf will be that big you will never ever will be broken. Broken menas that you do 30 % less dmg than hunters and locks and that is just will not happen. THe worst scenario is that you do same dmg as that other classes, but I am sure mages will outdmg everybody escept rogues once more but margin will be slightly lower.

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I disagree, mages give up stuff to get damage. In TBC they still give up the same stuff and get nothing substantial in return anymore. That qualifies as being broken.

(This does not qualify as a whine, it's merely a statement of facts - I've learned to live with the fact mages will end up sub-par in PVE/PVP in TBC long ago)

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Q u o t e:

FFS all locks will go for felgurad, and it is not raid spec ;)

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Mages are still split up about PVE builds, but all agree they're never going to reach live-level damage anymore.

Pet scaling and pets actually being useful in raiding would help balance this. Not giving hunters and warlocks themselves the same DPS as mages then add the pet on top of that while soloing or in PVP.

It's true though. If warlocks outdamage mages, we are nothing more but vendors. :/

Would this sound like a mage-like spell?

Living Bomb
Requires level 70
882 mana
30 yard range
2 sec cast
Sets the target on fire making them burn for 1044 fire damage over 18 seconds. When the target takes 1044 damage in total he will explode and inflict 1110 to 1290 fire damage to all enemies within 15 yards of the target. This spell can only effect one target at a time.


I would personally have loved a spell like this, but alas the most powerful AOE spell has been given to... *drumroll* ...warlocks! Who now scale better than mages with both +damage gear (DOTs) and +crit gear (improved shadow bolt) than any mage spec, rolling ignites put mages on par with shadow bolt spammers but now warlocks passed mages on scaling with crit gear. Not to forget they have new and improved AOE damage dealing capacity.

Or you might want to pick up a single target damage dealer that can also heal when needed and will be generating 200 mp5 for his entire group while DPSing with better mana conservation than a mage.

Or a single target damage dealer with a pet than with improved scaling is a viable choice for offtanking, this class can also do the "pew pew pew *poof* pew pew pew" tactic which was deemed overpowered for mages.

Then you go outside the raid instances and two of these classes have pets that deal 200+ DPS to help them in solo play or PVP.

I'm sorry, this is the only place i see mages after the expansion right now, as Vendors.

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Q u o t e:
I would personally have loved a spell like this, but alas the most powerful AOE spell has been given to... *drumroll* ...warlocks!

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It is very dubious, that Seed will be the best AoE at level 70. All your current abilities will get new ranks too. It's a nice thing to play with, but calling it the best AoE just proves how opportunistic you are in trying to find stuff to whine about.

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Q u o t e:
Who now scale better than mages with both +damage gear (DOTs) and +crit gear (improved shadow bolt) than any mage spec, rolling ignites put mages on par with shadow bolt spammers but now warlocks passed mages on scaling with crit gear.

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Not really.. Improved Shadow bolt is nice, but things like Molten Fury make up for it.
Can anyone link me to a thread where blue explained that the ignite behaviour is wanted, and not just a bug?

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Q u o t e:
Then you go outside the raid instances and two of these classes have pets that deal 200+ DPS to help them in solo play or PVP.

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If you're so jealous of pets reroll or spec Water Elemental.

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Q u o t e:
It is very dubious, that Seed will be the best AoE at level 70. All your current abilities will get new ranks too. It's a nice thing to play with, but calling it the best AoE just proves how opportunistic you are in trying to find stuff to whine about.

Not really.. Improved Shadow bolt is nice, but things like Molten Fury make up for it.
Can anyone link me to a thread where blue explained that the ignite behaviour is wanted, and not just a bug?

If you're so jealous of pets reroll or spec Water Elemental.

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I do have this warlock as well, which means i can compare the two classes currently and how they will be effected by the changes in TBC.

Imp shadow bolt gives warlocks over 250% crit damage to shadow bolt spam, lower than 280% due to debuffs overlapping with higher crit chances (but i guess you knew that). I calculated the crit effect for mages once as well due to boredom, you can find it at the top of these boards. Seed of curruption is the highest direct damage AOE spell, bar none.

I really ought to post my calculations for how much use a warlock and mage get from spell damage and crit gear using the best damage sequence now and after TBC. In live warlocks are ahead of mages, your guild use a shadow priest right? If you're stuck in the MT group with only two warlocks who have to keep CoE and CoR up that might explain your inferiority complex, and your urge to troll the mage boards. Shoo!

"I do have this warlock" doesnt mean that everything you say about them is automatically true.

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Q u o t e:
Imp shadow bolt gives warlocks over 250% crit damage to shadow bolt spam, lower than 280% due to debuffs overlapping with higher crit chances (but i guess you knew that). I calculated the crit effect for mages once as well due to boredom, you can find it at the top of these boards.

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Very unlikely.

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Q u o t e:
Seed of curruption is the highest direct damage AOE spell, bar none.

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Depends on how you are calculating the damage... Realistically it isn't.

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Q u o t e:
your guild use a shadow priest right? If you're stuck in the MT group with only two warlocks who have to keep CoE and CoR up that might explain your inferiority complex, and your urge to troll the mage boards. Shoo!

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So you base your assumptions about warlock supremacy on the fact that every raid will have a shadow priest and none of the warlocks have to use any of their utility (suppyling imp or either one of the curses) Shoo!

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Q u o t e:
I
or eaven if I am wrong and your nerf will be that big you will never ever will be broken. Broken menas that you do 30 % less dmg than hunters and locks and that is just will not happen. THe worst scenario is that you do same dmg as that other classes, but I am sure mages will outdmg everybody escept rogues once more but margin will be slightly lower.

FFS all locks will go for felgurad, and it is not raid spec ;)

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That is where you are wrong, Warlocks will do substancially higher amount of Damage than Mages will. Shadowbolt is defenitely comparable to Mages Main-Spells, in addition they have several DoT's that further uncrease the Damage. And they get Fel Armor, which raise Spellpower by 100. That virtually a Flask of Supreme Power.

No, Warlocks will most certainly beat Mages for DPS. As will Hunters and Rogues most likely. On the other hand Classes that deal Physical Damage will be affected by Mob Armours, whereas Mages/Locks will not.

Still, I am abandoning my Mage for this Warlock, since Warlocks are both easier to play, and alot more fun than Mages will be.

Mages will probably get some Major buf#!@e sometime into BC, but it's to late now. I did NOT make a Mage to be a bloody Candy-machine to hand out food and Water, I made a Mage to do Top DPS.

And since Blizzard is dead set on equalizing Damage, they should also Equalize Base HP for all Classes, and diminish the differance in Armour a great deal.

What *were* they smoking? xD

"Equalise DPS"? That's, no matter what way you like at it, really really stupid...Ah well *puts a box over my head* and I don't even get a coin slot :(

Another day, another whinepost from a Mage.

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Q u o t e:
"I do have this warlock" doesnt mean that everything you say about them is automatically true.

Very unlikely.


Depends on how you are calculating the damage... Realistically it isn't.

So you base your assumptions about warlock supremacy on the fact that every raid will have a shadow priest and none of the warlocks have to use any of their utility (suppyling imp or either one of the curses) Shoo!

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Well lets see, 80% on the following 4 direct damage spells. 200 % crit and 4 spells with added 20% damage, total effect of 280%. But if your first spell is a crit then you only recieved 240%, if the second crit then 260%, third 280%, 4:th 300% or later 280%. Calculate the chances of this happening and you'll notice shadow bolt spam has a crit effect over 250% for any reasonable amounf of crit chance, the value is closer to 270% with normal crit rates. Try to calculate it yourself, it's true (but then again a lot of whining warlocks only ever went for +damage and wondered how they scaled so poorly, aah well).

It is.

There is no reason not to replace a DPS mage with a DPS shadow priest or warlock as it stands now, add the fact that a warlock can add further utility with an imp (this is not a drawback).

Warlocks won't even need a shadow priest in TBC to outdamage mages, it's just a additional perk there. Also correct me if I'm wrong but the pet wonn't add to your threat making the damage a warlock +pet can deal before pulling aggro higher than what a mage can deal by himself.

So Cece, i sat down, thought it through and recalculated the effect of crits when shadow bolt spamming for warlocks. Also I took a few minutes to compare the total DPS increase to shadow bolt and fireball in a raid situation. Let's asume a SM+ruin build so you can still have your imp out without too much gimpage, okay? And let's see what we come up with...

So say you get a crit, I'll call that cast 0. Now the next 4 spells will get an additional 20% damage, and that spell did 200% of your normal shadow bolt hit. Also all additional damage will be granted the crit which invoked the vulnerability.

If cast 1 crits: You will add 40% of a regular shadow bolt damage, then overwrite the vulnerability with a new one.
If cast 1 hits: You will add 20% of a regular shadow bolt damage, 3 stacks left.

If cast 1 hits, 2crits: It adds 20% damage from the hit, 40% damage from the crit, new vulnerability overwrites the old.
If cast 1 hits, 2 hits: Adds 20+20% damage and 2 more stacks...

And so on for a bit...

If cast 1-3 hits and 4 crits: 20+20+20+40% =100% additional damage.
If all casts 1-4 hits: 20+20+20+20 = 80% additional damage.

Now just calculate the chance of each of these things happening after a crit and you'll get some nifty results. With 20% crit chance on a warlock a crit is worth on average 271% of your base damage0 and with 25% base crit chance 268%.

Dang! Shadow bolt crits are in the 270% area for shadow bolt spam!

Now I'll refer you to the post i made about fire mage crits in raids once:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=47014890&sid=1

The best possible a fire mage can hope for is 255%, 270 > 255.

Conclusion: A WARLOCK SPAMMING SHADOW BOLT HAS A HIGHER VALUE FROM HIS CRITS THAN A FIRE MAGE! Warlocks scale better than mages with crit gear. Stupid warlocks who aim for +damage and keep casting DOTs which get knocked off targets will not do well in the damage compartment, smart warlocks who balance crit and +damage gear will get more bang for their buck. This also applies to warlocks who believe a conflag build is good, it isn't.

So that was scaling with crit, how then about scaling with +damage?
Mage:
Fire power 10% damage
Critical mass: 6% crit
Scorch debuff: 15% damage
Cast time reduction on fireball: 16.7% (3.5/3)

Multiply the coefficients: 47.6% damage and 6% crit (some people add coefficients, this is wrong)

Warlock:
Shadow mastery 10%
Devastation 5% crit.
Shadow weaving 15% damage
Cast time reduction on shadow bolt: 20% (3/2.5)

Multiply the coefficients: 51.8% damage and 5% crit.

The difference being 4.2% in favor of the warlocks on damage and 1% crit in favor of mages.

So fireball, which is the best scaling mage spell is outscaled in both damage and crit effectiveness by warlocks shadow bolt as it is now.

The reason mages deal more damage than warlocks is because of one main thing: Threat reduction.

Now cue TBC. Warlocks are getting buffs to their current abilities, mages are getting nerfs to their current abilities. Which means the starting point for the relative balance between these classes is further scewed towards warlocks.

I should also add, the current TBC beta changes to fire mages is that ignite no longer double dips into vulnerabilities, and rolling ignites won't increase damage. Making fire crits 210% while shadow bolt crits will remain at their 270% effectiveness.

Also combustion get a huge blow because of the little change that makes powerful cumbusted ignite DOTs last way shorter time (not that it would matter with the complete trash on test right now).