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  • 0. [Guide] Raiding as Survival   07/02/2009 04:51:03 PST
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This should give you some info and tips on how to be a Survival hunter for 25 man raiding.
Some info provided in this post is taken from Asaki-Argent Dawn and warcrafthuntersunion.com

Survival tree (51-53 points):

5/5 Imp Tracking: Gives you 5% extra damage with tracking.
3/3 Hawk Eye: Increases range by 6 yards, and is a must with Sniper Training.
2/2 Survival Instincts: +2% crit Steady/Arcane/Explosive shot and 2% less damage taken.
5/5 Survivalist: +10% more stamina, after buffs.
3/3 TNT: +9% additional crit chance on Explosive Shot.

3/3 Lock and Load: 10% chance on Serpent Sting and 100% chance on traps to get 2 free Explosive Shots with no ammo, mana and cooldown used.
Has a 30 second cooldown.
Note: The 1.5 second Global Cooldown still applies on the Shots.

3/3 Hunter vs. Wild: Increases your and your pet's AP by 30% of your stamina.
3/3 Killer Instinct: +3% critical strike chance on all attacks.
5/5 Lightning Reflexes: +15% agility after buffs.

2/3 - 3/3 Expose Weakness: 66-100% chance on ranged critical hits to gain 25% of your AGI as AP for 7 seconds.
Base on reaching the soft haste cap (523 Haste Rating) and therefore firing 10 shots per 7 seconds and buffed to 50% crit rate.
1/3 EW = ~84% uptime
2/3 EW = ~98% uptime
3/3 EW = ~99.9% uptime.
So with much lower haste and crit ratings 3/3 EW is better then 2/3.

1/1 Wyvern Sting: Just for being able to get the Noxious Stings talent.
3/3 Thrill of the Hunt: If a shot crits, you gain 40% of it's mana costs back.
5/5 Master Tactician: 10% chance upon all successful ranged hits to get +10% crit strike chance.
3/3 Noxious Stings: +3% damage on targets affected by your Serpent Sting.

3/3 Sniper Training: Requires a minimum 30 yards from target to gain +6% damage on Steady, Aimed and Explosive Shot against that target.
In addition it adds +15% critical strike chance to Kill Shot.
Range Display is a good addon to use together with it:
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/range-display.aspx

1/5-3/5 Hunting Party: Adds replenishment support to your raid.
Same as Expose Weakness concerning crit, but haste wise based on amounts of shots fired every 15 seconds to cover 2-3 replenishment procs (for 25 man raid) every 15 seconds.
With the same 50% crit chance most will even be fine with 1/5, if there are other classes providing mana regen.

1/1 Explosive Shot: The strongest shot for a survival hunter.
REMEMBER TO TRAIN THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF THIS SHOT AT THE HUNTER TRAINER


Marksmanship tree (15-18 points):
5/5 Lethal Shots: +5% critical strike chance on all shots.
5/5 Mortal Shots: +30% critical strike damage on abilities. (Means that this does not affect Auto Shot)
3/3 Careful Aim: Adds 100% of you intellect to ranged attack power.

1/1 Aimed Shot: To replace some Steady Shot's in rotation.
Aimed Shot hits/crits for 500-1000+ more damage.
This is an instant shot.

1/2 Go for the Throat: Gives your pet 25 focus each time you hit a boss with a ranged critical hit.
0/3-3/3 Improved Stings: Enhances all stings, but for PvE, this gives your Serpent Sting +30% damage.
With Improved Aspect of the Hawk you gain more DPS pr. point then by Improved Stings.
Specially with a glyph providing 2 additional points.
And that even if your Steady Shot is down at 1.5 seconds cast time.


Beast Mastery (1-5 points):
1/5-5/5 Improved Aspect of the Hawk: Even if you are haste capped, this talent provides you enough boost on your Auto Shots making it worth it.

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 1. Some build examples:   07/02/2009 04:51:34 PST
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Some build examples:

If you got below 30% Crit and need to provide Replenishment
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=coZceVoZe00i0cIhxuNhcu

If you got below 35% Crit and need to provide Replenishment
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=coZceVoZe00i0cIhxuAhcd

And both without Replenishment
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cbZceVooZe00i0cIhxuAhcz

If you got more then 35% Crit regardless of Replenishment need
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cbZceVooZe00i0cIhxdAhck

If you are hit capped move points from Focused Aim to Improved Aspect of the Hawk or Improved Stings.

There are more ways to set a raiding build up, one could be for trap dancing, but I rather have someone with experience about it posting such builds.


Gems / Enchants / Glyphs/ Consumables:

Gems:
Based on highest DPS output.
Red sockets: Agi gems.
Blue sockets: The best gem for a blue slot is the Enchanted Tear since there is no Shifting Twilight Opal in game yet.
Note that you can only use 1 Enchanted Tear, so if you got more then 1 blue socket use Perfect Agi/Stam gems in the rest.
Another thing worth mentioning is that Enchanted Tear covers all gem colors.
So that alone will be enough to cover a Meta gem bonus.
Yellow sockets: 8Agi + (Hit, Crit or Haste), chosen by what gives you most dps.
Meta socket: Agi + crit damage
Sometimes overriding the socket bonus adds more dps, mainly by adding the highest agi gems into them instead.
But keep in mind that you still want the meta gem bonus.
If you are Jewel Crafter, you might gain most by Agi in every socket.

Enchants:
Weapon: +110 AP for 2H or Agi enchants on 2 x 1H weapons
Ranged: +40 Haste or 40 Crit
Head: 50 AP 20 Crit (Ebon Hold Quartermaster)
Shoulders: 40 AP 15 Crit (Sons of Hodir Quartermaster)
Cloak: +22 Agi
Chest: +10 all stats
Bracers: +50 AP
Gloves: +20 Agi
Belt: Belt Buckle +Agi gem
Leggings: AP+Crit rate Leg Armor
Boots: Icewalker or 16 Agi

Glyphs
Major Glyphs: Improved Aspect of the Hawk, Serpent Sting, Steady Shot
Minor Glyphs: Feign Death, Mend Pet, Revive Pet

Consumables
Flask of Endless Rage
Food: 40 Agility / 40 Stamina

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 2. Stats   07/02/2009 04:52:04 PST
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Let's move trough some stats.

Agility:
For a level 80 hunter, 1 Agility gives you 1 AP and:
83.33 Agility = 1% crit - or 1 Agil = .55 Crit Rating
79.19 Agility = 1% Dodge
1 Agility = 2 Armor
As a rule of thumb 1 agi is better than 2 ap, but in most cases not better than 3 ap.
More math around AGI, RAP, DPS and Haste in this stats topic:
http://mineria.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2

Hit rating:
For a level 80 hunter, 32.79 hit rating gives you 1% hit.
263 Hit Rating is needed to reach the Hit Cap

With 3/3 Focused Aim 164 Hit Rating is needed
With 2/3 Focused Aim 197 Hit Rating is needed
With 1/3 Focused Aim 230 Hit Rating is needed

Crit rating:
For a level 80 hunter, 45.91 crit rating gives you 1% Crit
Survival hunters crit a lot. It's their way of doing damage. Hunting Party, Expose Weakness and Thrill of the Hunt procs from crits.
Getting 40% crit unbuffed means that these buffs can be up 100% with the minimum amount of talent points spent.

Haste:
For a level 80 hunter, 32.79 haste rating gives you 1% haste.
523 Haste Rating is needed to reach the MM or Survival hunter haste cap to get Steady Shot down to 1.5 seconds casttime.
You always have to wait for the 1.5 sec global cooldown, so a faster Steady Shot will not bring anything.
But, more Haste will still help upon Auto Shots.

Attack Power:
14 AP (attack power) = 1 dps
It's still a decent stat for a survival hunter, and your pet gains 22% of your attack power.

Intellect:
Careful Aim transforms 100% of your intellect in AP back.
Replenishment effects are calculated over max mana, so the more you have the more you gain back.
You shouldn't gem/enchant for it, but it's worth mentioning that with AP being quite a good stat, you're probably better off with gear that has intellect rather then leather gear without intellect.

Armor Penetration
For a level 80 hunter, 15.39 Armor Pen Rating gives 1% armor reduction
350 Armor Penetration Rating = 1% damage increase against a target with 20k armor
250 Armor Penetration Rating = 1% damage increase against a target with 10k armor
200 Armor Penetration Rating = 1% damage increase against a target with 5k armor
180 Armor Penetration Rating = 1% damage increase against a target with 3k armor
You shouldn't directly aim for this stat, just good to know what it is, since some of the "best in slot" gear has it.

Hunter Stat Conversion to Pet
Pets Gain:
22% of hunter AP
30% of hunter Stamina
40% of hunter resistances
35% of hunter armor
12.85% of hunter AP as spelldamage
100% of hunter hit rating, but drop fractions. Thus if you have +5.99% hit your pet gets only 5%. Focused Aim talent does not benefit the pet.

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 3. Shot rotation and shot importance:   07/02/2009 04:52:36 PST
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Shot rotation and shot importance:
You can probably macro this stuff, but try to manually time the shots, so you learn how it works.

Serpent Sting: Should always be up. Do not refresh it before it wears off.
Adds +10% damage to Steady Shots via the Glyph
Increases all damage by 3% via Noxious Stings
Triggers Lock and Load procs. (10% chance on each tick).

Explosive Shot: Use every 6 seconds.

Aimed Shot / Multi-Shot: Use each 10 seconds.

Steady Shot: Weave Steady Shots in between the above shots, to fill out gaps.

Volley: Use on groups of small trash mobs.

Lock and Load procs.

Calculations have shown that you gain most by going ES-ES-ES but...
After gcd wears of on each Explosive Shot you have to fire the next between 0.500 - 0.527 seconds after gcd.
Which means ES-SS-ES-SS-ES is the safest way to go with, to avoid eating up ticks or delaying the next ES to much, latency has a lot to say for this.
Never ever use Arcane Shot if you got Explosive Shot! You loose a lot of damage by using AS instead of ES.
Since Lock and Load doesn't trigger cooldown on your next 2 explosive shots, your third explosive shot will generate a cooldown again.

Disengage: It is a good idea to get used to this.
I use it a lot to get range for Sniper Training.
Note that combining it with jumping [SPACE] can be in some situations be very helpful.

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 4. Oo Macros    07/02/2009 04:53:07 PST
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Macros

Here is how I use macros for my Survival rotations.

I have tried several way of scripting macros, but most of them don't seem to work very well.
Like linking several shots to castrandom and so on.
So I worked out to make something a bit more optimal.
Note that the 3 macros are used together, using them separate is not optimal.
Except for the Pet macro which can be used for other specs as well.

Without knowledge about how a survival spec with Lock and Load works, these macros are pretty useless.
Since you need to pay attention to what goes on.
So you can't just close your eyes and spam them, which isn't the idea either.

The difference between handweaving and using the scripts below is that you might loose Serpent Sting up-time with the Lock and Load Rotation (lasts 4.5 - 6 seconds)
Plus if it is triggered at the wrong spot upon the normal rotation you risk to delay an Explosive Shot.
But if attention is payed, they do wonders.

These can only be used as Survival with Lock and Load / Explosive Shot / Aimed Shot.

First macro is the one I click spam just to keep the loop going.
It links to 2 modifier keys, 1 for putting up Hunter's Mark and another for using another rotation while Lock And Load is up.
This can as well be done manually where you wait 2 seconds after each Explosive Shot.
In the end it doesn't matter as much going ES-SS-ES instead, ES-SS-ES is safer if you want to be sure that a to early triggered ES doesn't eat up a tick.
The last SS in the sequence is only there as security, so you need to time when to hold down the mod key upon LnL.
Another thing that one could do is taking the Serpent Sting out of rotation and add it as modifier instead.

/castrandom Kill Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [modifier:ctrl]Hunter's Mark
/click ActionButton10
/click [target=pettarget,exists] ActionButton11
/castsequence [modifier:shift] Explosive Shot, Steady Shot, Explosive Shot, Steady Shot

Button 10 on my Action Bar.
I expanded it to 24 seconds to add 2 Aimed Shots into rotation.
So the Serpent Sting tick left out pr rotation doesn't matter much.
Plus that timing in Aimed Shot to exact every 10 seconds is impossible with Explosive Shot every 6 seconds.
At some point they will always end up at the same spot, which a hand weaved rotation won't prevent either.

The idea of a sequence it to tighten up shot delays.
So with a Global Cooldown limited to 1.5 seconds we want to get as close as 6 seconds between Explosive Shots.
Since that is the cooldown for them.
Note the [nomod] which means that without a pressed modifier key from the above macro, it will use the order of shots typed below.
Reset=10 because our longest shot (Aimed Shot) has a 10 second cooldown.

/castsequence [nomod] reset=10 Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot, Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Explosive Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Explosive Shot, Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Explosive Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot

Button 11 on my Action Bar, this is for a Raptor.
The idea is to provoke faster focus dumping and by that to increase the pets dps.
Since the priority of the build in auto trigger for pets doesn't seem to work optimal.
High crit rating required.

/cast Kill Command
/cast Savage Rend
/cast Claw
/cast Rabid


Here is a macro combining Rapid Fire and Call of the Wild, since both are usually on a 5 minutes cooldown and got a 20 seconds duration.
So I'm synchronizing them for boss fights to get max dps from them.

/cast Rapid Fire
/cast Call of the Wild

A macro I use for Feign Death.
Clearing the target will stop attacks to, making FD safer.

#showtooltip Feign Death
/cleartarget
/cast Feign Death

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 5. Addons   07/02/2009 04:53:45 PST
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Besides the regular raid frames, aggro meters etc. which your guild might require you to use.

I'm listing a few useful addons for Hunters.

1.Kharthus's Hunter Timers
Currently, this mod will time the duration of various hunter abilities in a draggable frame. The tooltips that show which mob the timer is affecting are only shown when the ctrl key is pressed.

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/kharthuss-hunter-timers.aspx

I edited the lua for this mod, and removed procs like Expose Weakness, Master Tactician and others that are useless to have as timer bars.
So now the Talent Proc option only shows: Lock and Load, Explosive Shot, Aimed Shot, Chimera Shot and Concussive Barrage.

http://files.filefront.com/KHunterTimerslua/;13153670;/fileinfo.html

2. ZHunterMod
Useful additions to make a Hunter's life even easier!
* NOTE: To move buttons, first hold ALT then drag the first button.
INCLUDES:
ZAspect, ZTrap, ZTrack, ZPet Spell button bars to save space. Key Bindings available for all buttons. Use /zhunter to access options.
ZAutoShot Casting bar for auto shot. Use /zautoshot to lock/unlock the bar for movement.
ZAutoStrip Button to strip your valuable gear. Right-click to auto strip when you next leave combat (feign).Use /zstrip to access the options.
Possible commands: display, toggle, or now
ZArcaneDispel Shows which spell you remove from the enemy. Use /zhunter to access options.
ZHunterTranq Cooldown bars for other Hunter's Tranq Shot. Shows misses and includes options to announce in chat.
Use /ztranq while a Hunter is selected to add it to the rotation. To reset and hide the bars, use: /ztranq clear
ZMisdirect Broadcast your misdirection casts in multiple channels. Use /zhunter to customize
ZAntiDaze Removes Cheetah and Pack when you or your party gets dazed. Use /zhunter to turn on/off
ZPetAttack Key Binding to have pet attack or return if already attacking.
ZPetObey Key Binding to have pet stay or follow.

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/zhunter-mod.aspx

3. SmartBuff
SmartBuff is a buff addon, to cast buffs ease and quickly. All classes are supported. Bind a key, scrollwheel or use the action button and it checks if you, a party/raid member, also hunter and warlock pets, needs your buff and cast it. Use the options menu to configure it you like, as example: buffs, raid subgroups, pets, etc.
Run the mod when ever you wish, if nothing is buffed, there is no penalty or cool down.
I find this mod useful as a reminder to get Hawk and TSA back on after a wipe.

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/smart-buff.aspx

4. AutoAspect
I put together AutoAspect after the 3.0 change to Aspect of the Viper. I can't tell you how many times we would be fighting a boss in ZA or something and I would realize part way through the fight that I still had Viper on and was doing half damage.
So that's where AutoAspect comes in. This is a very simple addon (my first addon, in fact) but it keeps my aspects straight.

http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info11381-AutoAspect.html

5. Track-o-Matique
Automatic tracking of the current target's creature type. For the discerning PvE hunter.
First and foremost targeted at the talent Improved Tracking, but it seems like it may be useful even outside of that.

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/track-o-matique.aspx

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 6. Gear   07/02/2009 05:00:43 PST
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Instead of listing a lot of gear I give you a link to 2 tools with which you can compare different combos of gear.
Sad thing is that both are for Windows PC's, so if someone has something for Mac users feel welcome to post about it.

RAWR
This is the one I use, since I don't have MS Office, requires .Net

http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr


WotLK DPS spreadsheet
Works only with MS Office (The author must think that it is common to have a license for it)

http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t30710-wotlk_dps_spreadsheet/

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 7. Some tips   07/02/2009 05:01:49 PST
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Here are a few tips on how to improve your gameplay:

Use Frost Traps on trash/adds to trigger additional Lock and Load's.

Use Immolation Trap in close up boss fights.

Disengage.
Cause of Sniper Trainings current 30 yards requirement, this skill is a great help.
So practice using this to get a feeling about how far it puts you away from targets.
Note that you can "space jump" combine this skill to get much larger leaps.

Pet management.
Even as Survival Hunter, your pet is still 15-18% of your DPS.
So always have it on target, resurrect it when it is dead and pull it in and out of fights where you can avoid it to take AoE damage.
Some fights it might even be an idea to dismiss it and recall it, to prevent it to bug when you encounter a boss. (Thaddius as example)
Another important thing is to notice the difference of passive and defensive, some places you want it on passive while you get more by having it on defensive to get more dps on other parts.
Plus that passive makes it easier to switch targets under certain fights.

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 8. Re: Reserved   07/02/2009 07:45:17 PST
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Great post, should be a sticky
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  • 9. Re: Some build examples:   07/02/2009 09:04:06 PST
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I would disagree that Enchanted Tear is the best for blue sockets.

Some math:
Enchanted Tear's beneficial stats: 6 agi 6 stam 6 int.
6 int = some mana and 6 AP with 3/3 Careful Aim.
6 stam = some hp and 6 * 1,1(survivalist) * 0,3(hunter vs. wild) ~ 2 AP.
6 agi.

Shifting Twilight Opal is 8 agi 12 stam.
12 stam is some health and 12 * 1,1 * 0,3 ~ 4 AP.
8 agi.

In total Tear gives 2 agi less but 4 AP more.
2 agi > 4 AP, even you said that.
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  • Chamber of Aspects
  • 10. Re: Guide: Raiding as Survival   07/02/2009 09:13:01 PST
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Idd, good guide, but there's already few of these guides around the forum, none of which got stickied =/
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  • 11. Re: Some build examples:   07/02/2009 09:38:05 PST
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Q u o t e:
I would disagree that Enchanted Tear is the best for blue sockets.

Some math:
Enchanted Tear's beneficial stats: 6 agi 6 stam 6 int.
6 int = some mana and 6 AP with 3/3 Careful Aim.
6 stam = some hp and 6 * 1,1(survivalist) * 0,3(hunter vs. wild) ~ 2 AP.
6 agi.

Shifting Twilight Opal is 8 agi 12 stam.
12 stam is some health and 12 * 1,1 * 0,3 ~ 4 AP.
8 agi.

In total Tear gives 2 agi less but 4 AP more.
2 agi > 4 AP, even you said that.


Thank you for noticing that.
Forgot that the Shifting Twilight Opal has been brought into game recently.
Edit: And now I need to get one for my bracers :D

[ Post edited by Mineria ]


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  • 12. Re: Some build examples:   08/02/2009 10:14:42 PST
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Said that above a bit to early.
There is no Shifting Twilight Opal in game yet, why Enchanted Tear is still the best gem for a blue socket.

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  • Trollbane
  • 14. Re: Some build examples:   08/02/2009 14:42:15 PST
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You might wanna change the bracerenchant, since 50 ap is better then 32. Anyways, a really good thread.
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  • 15. Re: Some build examples:   08/02/2009 14:59:05 PST
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Q u o t e:
Mineria, do you keep your guide at http://mineria.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7&p=8#p8 updated? I had it bookmarked last week when you mentioned it here, and used it as reference. Or is the forum thread going to be the version you update?

Thanks for the work on this, has really been a great help for my hunter. :)

Yeah keeping both updated.


Q u o t e:
You might wanna change the bracerenchant, since 50 ap is better then 32. Anyways, a really good thread.

Thank you, fixed it.

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Ancilorn
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  • 16. Re: [Guide] Raiding as Survival   10/02/2009 02:45:40 PST
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This is a great thread. We're re-doing our "informative guide" stickies and this will be included in that. Thanks for the good work!

"Live every day like your hair was on fire."

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  • Hellscream
  • 17. Re: [Guide] Raiding as Survival   10/02/2009 06:28:29 PST
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Just for the sake of accuracy, you might want to update the Lock and Load text to include the new 10% value and maybe mention the 30 sec hidden cooldown.

Apart from that, keep it up. :)


I'll just add a bit of support for the Enchanted Tear while I'm here :) With that one gem meeting all the requirements for the Relentless Earthsiege Meta, it allows the use of +16 AGI gems wherever you want, giving it added value over and above its pure stat value alone.



[ Post edited by Uzug ]


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  • 18. Re: [Guide] Raiding as Survival   10/02/2009 08:55:36 PST
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Thank you Uzug, updated it.

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  • 19. Re: [Guide] Raiding as Survival   10/02/2009 09:55:49 PST
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Very nice guide. Just one little thing I noticed:


Q u o t e:

1/5-3/5 Hunting Party: Adds replenishment support to your raid.
Same as Expose Weakness concerning crit, but haste wise based on amounts of shots fired every 15 seconds to cover 2-3 replenishment procs (for 15 man raid) every 15 seconds.
With the same 50% crit chance most will even be fine with 1/5, if there are other classes providing mana regen.



15 man raids? O_o It would give achievements though ^^


Q u o t e:
We do have a deadzone, 35 (or 41) yards and beyond, you have nearly the whole realm to stand in safely, but noooo, you want our little 35 yard circle, greedy bugger.
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