World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ...

Phessisca

< Tarnished >

Earthen Ring

20. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 06:44:06 PDT

Warlocks: Drain Life Bugged. MS not working on it, Pummel = No silence.
Weaknesses: ..............Destro? :P

Warriors: Arms warrior weakness = None. Make them disarmable.
Weaknesses: Stop saying %!!# like kite and such, that's for EVERY melee class. Weakness is a "Oh damn MY weak spot". Only weakness is none for Arms. Health return for Fury is too low on Berserker, Rampage should be Auto castable. Prot is fine. PvE and not PvP.

Shamans: Alot of weakness, their Damage output is a part of their weakness agenda, deadly in Range/Melee for DPS, Resto is unkillable with earthshield.
Weaknesses: Got no CC ability except slow.

Rogue: Second most vulnerable class with the new stun resistance and trinket spam.
Weakness: Kite(Mostly fair with the PVP Gauntlets, once unstealthed is the most vulnerable class during combat. Make Cloak of Shadow 30 Sec for able to take away debuff to restealth.

Druid: THE class for survivalbility, even better then Locks.
Weakness: Currently. none.

Hunter: The kite class, doesn't have much weakness currently discovered.
Weakness: Only thinkable weakness is .....=/

Mage: The power Class, simple and very dangerous and untouchable when played correct.
Weakness: Silence effects.

Priest: The class with most survivability against spells.
Weakness: Purge and dispels, otherwise the third best survivor, currently weak in holy aspect otherwise no weaknessess against meleers or Hunters.

Paladin: The class with most weaknesses,
Weaknesses: no DoTs(Targetable, and SoV isn't worth talking about.), No Slows(Second only class without slow.) Can't get close enough to Melee, Pathetic melee dmg, average magical attacks, laughjable purgespam > Paladin.

Just my opinion! :P

I will be canceling my account until futher issues has been made by Blizz or unless Blizzard Developers take their Minds to the game and fix the Specs viability. ESPECIALLY ret.

If nothing is done,

Halmir

21. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 06:56:37 PDT

Q u o t e:
Nice post, but alot of stuff that ain't really true - one of the major issues with Retribution is the itemization, which makes everything else look crap. I got 3/5 season 2, 2/5 season 1, season 2 greatsword... and I'm 'pretty good' while any other class in my level of gear would be 'well geared' at least.

The itemisation sounds like its changing anyway, purely from the PvE point of view, so i didnt feel the need to include it in the post. I didnt want to get into speculation about what talent and gear changes we are getting, and wanted to keep the post about what the "shortcomings in play" where.

Q u o t e:
Due to lag issues we could bubble + AW at same time.

Somehow that was fixable.

But spellstealing or purging Bubble is not fixable.

:)

It amazes me too.

I thought there was light at the end of the tunnel, and then it hit me, no it wasnt a light merely the glow of a nerf stick!

Grimbi

< My Main Ganks Too >

Jaedenar

22. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:28:57 PDT

I agree with most of what was said, i especially hate the choices between 20 prot and 20 holy -.-

Another constructive post sure, but its beating a dead horse that is the ret paladin, we need more dev interaction, or well never make any progress.

Wait so i guess that means no progress...sigh :Z

Dmoon

Jaedenar

23. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:39:33 PDT

Q u o t e:
Warlocks: Drain Life Bugged. MS not working on it, Pummel = No silence.
Weaknesses: ..............Destro? :P

Warriors: Arms warrior weakness = None. Make them disarmable.
Weaknesses: Stop saying %!!# like kite and such, that's for EVERY melee class. Weakness is a "Oh damn MY weak spot". Only weakness is none for Arms. Health return for Fury is too low on Berserker, Rampage should be Auto castable. Prot is fine. PvE and not PvP.

Shamans: Alot of weakness, their Damage output is a part of their weakness agenda, deadly in Range/Melee for DPS, Resto is unkillable with earthshield.
Weaknesses: Got no CC ability except slow.

Rogue: Second most vulnerable class with the new stun resistance and trinket spam.
Weakness: Kite(Mostly fair with the PVP Gauntlets, once unstealthed is the most vulnerable class during combat. Make Cloak of Shadow 30 Sec for able to take away debuff to restealth.

Druid: THE class for survivalbility, even better then Locks.
Weakness: Currently. none.

Hunter: The kite class, doesn't have much weakness currently discovered.
Weakness: Only thinkable weakness is .....=/

Mage: The power Class, simple and very dangerous and untouchable when played correct.
Weakness: Silence effects.

Priest: The class with most survivability against spells.
Weakness: Purge and dispels, otherwise the third best survivor, currently weak in holy aspect otherwise no weaknessess against meleers or Hunters.

Paladin: The class with most weaknesses,
Weaknesses: no DoTs(Targetable, and SoV isn't worth talking about.), No Slows(Second only class without slow.) Can't get close enough to Melee, Pathetic melee dmg, average magical attacks, laughjable purgespam > Paladin.

Just my opinion! :P

Agreed on all points, bar a few observations. My main is a rogue, so i can honestly 30 sec CloS would be overkill. I'd just like to be able to use it when affected by CC. A hunter's weakness is his deadzone. Druids are subject to mana drain when kited - shapeshifting costs a lot of mana. Resto Shamans are sitting ducks without ES, which is purgeable, dispellable, spell-stolen or consumed. That's all i had to say, aside that, i think it's a very realistic opinion on current classes in pvp :)

Q u o t e:
Want to discuss justice? > IRLawyer.com.

- Aeus

Tharfor

Blizzard Poster

24. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:43:52 PDT

Disclaimer: there are my, Tharfor's, reactions to the post which was reported as sticky worthy. It is an attempt to explain why I have chosen not to sticky it.

Healing
You stated that, when points are spent in the Retribution tree, there is no way to reduce the casting time of, or negate the casting interrupt penalty of, pure healing abilities.

Q u o t e:
Now while we have healing as a base line, we have no clear indication that its supposed to be part of Retribution play. I like to think and hope it is, I want it to be part of what we are, but not define who we are.

Since the Retribution tree would arguably be the ‘damage’ tree for this hybrid class, it is normal that healing must suffer. You can still heal yourself no matter where your talent points are spent; it is just not as easy to cast a quick, uninterrupted heal unless you spend the points to become a ‘healer’.

Removable Buffs & Debuffs

Q u o t e:
We rely on magical effects to boost our damage as well as actually do damage. All of these effects, even Vengeance, can be dispelled, purged and now stolen.

The Protection tree, one would assume, is the tree in which you save yourself and potentially others from harm. By spending points to ‘protect’, you can ‘protect’ your buffs from being removed or stolen. The term Retribution would suggest that you are vengeful and, rather than negate damage or ‘protect’, you would respond aggressively or with ‘retribution’ when you take damage or have your skills removed/stolen.

Auras & Cleanse – GCD’s
In the section above you stated that you do not wish your buffs and abilities to be removed, yet your are fully aware of your own ability ‘purge’ which does just that to other classes – just an observation.

Q u o t e:
We have several auras for both defensive and offensive moves, as well as having cleanse to remove several different types of effect from us.

Concerning Global Cooldowns, all classes are subject to this cooldown and all classes must find a way to work with or around them. You have ‘several’ abilities for offensive and defensive moves, you must find the best/most efficient way to utilise them.

Melee Range

Q u o t e:
Getting into melee range against a ranged class is a feat of luck and skill in itself with a Retribution paladin.

As a melee class with no real ranged skills to speak of, one might argue that this is a feature which you must learn to adapt to. You have skills which allow you to close that gap, though these can be rivaled by other items and abilities; if that were not the case the paladins extra speed might be considered to be too powerful.

Controllable Damage

Q u o t e:
We are a high crit requirement proc based damage class who's effective crit is capped below 20% given current gear and resilience.

Increasing damage output through crit rating is often considered to be a PvP tactic. A melee fighter seeking to boost their DPS is generally expected to seek Agility and Strength in order to increase attack power and you make no reference to this in your post.

Divine Shield
You speak as though Divine Shield is the main skill of not only Retribution paladins, but paladins in general.
The question I would pose to you is: if you are able to move without taking damage, and you are also able to apply the buffs and auras which you require not to be dispelled, whilst under divine shield, is it not a wise tactic to use divine shield for that purpose whilst closing gap to enter into melee range?

Summary
In my opinion, the weakness of a retribution paladin is that if you need your buffs to be active and you need to be in melee range.
If people can dispel your buffs when they see you coming, why not have no buffs active until you get to almost melee range?
If they can prevent you from getting into melee range whilst dealing damage to you, maybe find another target or get someone to help you?

It’s just a thought, but if you came running at my lit up like a Christmas tree with all your buffs, I’m likely to turn the other way until you burn yourself out/get dispelled a little. Paladins are not about getting momentum over time like a warrior, or about building up to massive damage like a rogue, they are about getting to the right place and exploding a shower of painful light. Get there first, and then power-up your dynamo; in my experience it doesn’t take very long to get from no buffs to ‘omgwtfpwn’ mode.

"Tharfor, you are really playing with fire."

< Core >

Stormscale

25. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:48:17 PDT

Q u o t e:
Auras & Cleanse – GCD’s
In the section above you stated that you do not wish your buffs and abilities to be removed, yet your are fully aware of your own ability ‘purge’ which does just that to other classes – just an observation.

Did I missunderstand or did a blue just tell us we have purge?

[ Post edited by Ed ]

Ed The Lightbringer

Aedarin

< Taste of Blood >

Argent Dawn

26. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:50:33 PDT

Q u o t e:
Auras & Cleanse – GCD’s
In the section above you stated that you do not wish your buffs and abilities to be removed, yet your are fully aware of your own ability ‘purge’ which does just that to other classes – just an observation.

And now you cannot edit it out!

EDIT: This isn't even funny. Really.

[ Post edited by Aedarin ]

'This is BLASPHEMY, Plumber...This is MADNESS!'
...
'Madness?'...

'THIS IS MUSHROOM KINGDOM!'

Kakashii

Deathwing

27. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:51:11 PDT

Think he did :P Paladins does not have purge tharfor ^^

Shinkosh

< Vogmor Corporation >

Darkspear

28. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:52:57 PDT

Oh jesus thank god. I read that and thought for a second that Shammie where getting Divine Shield.

*Hands Tharfor a flame proof suit*

[ Post edited by Shinkosh ]

Ægis

< Pride of St George >

Nordrassil

30. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:56:23 PDT

First of all, thanks for disclosing your personal opinions.

But where to begin. :)

Q u o t e:
Healing
You stated that, when points are spent in the Retribution tree, there is no way to reduce the casting time of, or negate the casting interrupt penalty of, pure healing abilities.

Since the Retribution tree would arguably be the ‘damage’ tree for this hybrid class, it is normal that healing must suffer. You can still heal yourself no matter where your talent points are spent; it is just not as easy to cast a quick, uninterrupted heal unless you spend the points to become a ‘healer’.

Hybridness? Are we not a Heal/x Hybrid? Shaman for exmaple (I know Hal didn't want class comparisons...) get an Ability in thier helaing tree to make a heal instant cast.

They also have the option to use this to make an offensive damage cast instant.

Hybridness/synergy between trees and roles.

Paladins don't have that.

Q u o t e:
Removable Buffs & Debuffs

The Protection tree, one would assume, is the tree in which you save yourself and potentially others from harm. By spending points to ‘protect’, you can ‘protect’ your buffs from being removed or stolen. The term Retribution would suggest that you are vengeful and, rather than negate damage or ‘protect’, you would respond aggressively or with ‘retribution’ when you take damage or have your skills removed/stolen.

One talent. Mid tree. 30% versus purges/dispells that can be spammed....

You miss that point, that unlike other classes, this has more of an impact on Paladins, it's more debilitating, as *everything* bar two Talents can be dispelled. Plus the horrors of being spell locked.

You can only use one Talent and AA.

Q u o t e:
Melee Range

As a melee class with no real ranged skills to speak of, one might argue that this is a feature which you must learn to adapt to. You have skills which allow you to close that gap, though these can be rivaled by other items and abilities; if that were not the case the paladins extra speed might be considered to be too powerful.

What skills? BoF? DS. BoF is getting a severe nerf, and DS, well see below.

Plus the same classes we are trying to reach range with, can disable, easily our only way to reach range. And while they do that, they also damage us.

Q u o t e:
Controllable Damage

Increasing damage output through crit rating is often considered to be a PvP tactic. A melee fighter seeking to boost their DPS is generally expected to seek Agility and Strength in order to increase attack power and you make no reference to this in your post.

Crit versus Resilience? Anyway, this isn't the point of controlled damage...

Q u o t e:
Divine Shield
You speak as though Divine Shield is the main skill of not only Retribution paladins, but paladins in general.
The question I would pose to you is: if you are able to move without taking damage, and you are also able to apply the buffs and auras which you require not to be dispelled, whilst under divine shield, is it not a wise tactic to use divine shield for that purpose whilst closing gap to enter into melee range?

Once every 5 minutes? Assuming MD isn't used. Add a 5 minute cooldown to Charge/intercept. Or Blink.

Q u o t e:
Summary
In my opinion, the weakness of a retribution paladin is that if you need your buffs to be active and you need to be in melee range.
If people can dispel your buffs when they see you coming, why not have no buffs active until you get to almost melee range?
If they can prevent you from getting into melee range whilst dealing damage to you, maybe find another target or get someone to help you?

LoL.

Q u o t e:
It’s just a thought, but if you came running at my lit up like a Christmas tree with all your buffs, I’m likely to turn the other way until you burn yourself out/get dispelled a little. Paladins are not about getting momentum over time like a warrior, or about building up to massive damage like a rogue, they are about getting to the right place and exploding a shower of painful light. Get there first, and then power-up your dynamo; in my experience it doesn’t take very long to get from no buffs to ‘omgwtfpwn’ mode.

Which other class can you just turn the other way to?

Hunters? Warriors? Shaman?

you answered this yourself. That you can choose to just ignore Paladins highlights the inherant flaws in the class.

Q u o t e:
Relevant feedback is posted as soon as we have relevant feedback to post.

Q u o t e:
Hell, I have no answer to auto-run.

< Core >

Stormscale

31. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:56:25 PDT

But seriously.

If you are gonna comment on our abilities and skills and speak of your "opinion" and your "experience", shouldnt you at least have some experience?

Are you seriously suggesting that a fix to the dispel problem is that we should not activate our buffs until we are in melee range?

Are we playing versus SHEEP?
These people have minimum range on their dispells?

wtf is going on here? :o

Ed The Lightbringer

Kakashii

Deathwing

32. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:57:01 PDT

mabye blizz has always thought paladins had purge and thats why they didnt want to buff paladins.. but now they do know that we dont have purge they will buff us and nerf shamans.. ftw

Slacher

< For Great Justin >

Frostmane

33. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:57:08 PDT

Q u o t e:
Speaking of Cleanse probably

''yet your are fully aware of your own ability ‘purge’ which does just that to other classes''
What is does?Removes the other classes spells,like warlock's Dots.....

However if he is talking that we have Purge,like the Kalgan that said we can heal while tanking.

No, we have this spell called "Divine purge" wich removes the combat system for the target for 10sec, to bad you missed it, been there since beta. :l

Aedarin

< Taste of Blood >

Argent Dawn

34. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:57:19 PDT

If he meant out cleanse, it is even more stupid. Purge = Offensive dispel, Cleanse = Defensive dispel. What, are we supposed to lay down like dogs and die when dotted? And which class does cleanse totally lock? (Don't even DARE to say affliction here)

'This is BLASPHEMY, Plumber...This is MADNESS!'
...
'Madness?'...

'THIS IS MUSHROOM KINGDOM!'

Shinkosh

< Vogmor Corporation >

Darkspear

35. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:57:46 PDT

Q u o t e:
Speaking of Cleanse probably

''yet your are fully aware of your own ability ‘purge’ which does just that to other classes''
What is does?Removes the other classes spells,like warlock's Dots.....

However if he is talking that we have Purge,like the Kalgan that said we can heal while tanking.

I think thats the bit we're reading.

Secret 2.3 patch notes leaked I wonder?

In other news, flying pigs sighted over london.

Tharfor

Blizzard Poster

36. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 07:59:10 PDT

I said purge in inverted commas so as to make a comparison, not to indicate that was the name of your skill.

You do defensively through cleanse, that which shamans do offensively through purge. Thusly, you have an ability which is similar to purge and therefore you have a 'purge' ability.

"Tharfor, you are really playing with fire."

Horazon

< Khadgars Rage >

Stormscale

37. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 08:00:53 PDT

pala's purge my dots lol

Main:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&n=Horazon
Alt:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&n=Gruttepier

Ariasis

Steamwheedle Cartel

38. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 08:01:31 PDT

Q u o t e:

Auras & Cleanse – GCD’s
In the section above you stated that you do not wish your buffs and abilities to be removed, yet your are fully aware of your own ability ‘purge’ which does just that to other classes – just an observation.

Oh what a classic this will become..

Aedarin

< Taste of Blood >

Argent Dawn

39. Re: Every Spec Should Have a Weakness ... 17/09/2007 08:01:58 PDT

Q u o t e:
I said purge in inverted commas so as to make a comparison, not to indicate that was the name of your skill.

You do defensively through cleanse, that which shamans do offensively through purge. Thusly, you have an ability which is similar to purge and therefore you have a 'purge' ability.

We are not that stupid Tharfor you know.

And when making that comparision, have you found out which class we totally screw up like they do to us with purge / dispel magic?

'This is BLASPHEMY, Plumber...This is MADNESS!'
...
'Madness?'...

'THIS IS MUSHROOM KINGDOM!'

Forum > Classes > Paladin