UPDATED WITH 3.0.8 PATCH

Progression of the thread:
Right now is up the third edit using the most effective spec I found out so far. It's MY own summary with MY own tests. This is not bible, or the best KNOW-HOW ever, depends on you how you believe in all this and use it.

I personally like that this topic is stickied because Dual Wielding Death Knights are minority and I am glad this can be the place for discussing DW and finding new solutions.


Ninlei's Raid DPS Answers Volume 3

Hello everyone this is the rewamp of my original topic about Dual Wielding Raid DPS for Death Knights.

The first and second post succeed!

I am answering in 100% on Ravenholdt, sometimes here. I am not replying to any trolling, one sentence reactions and such. This topic brings to many Death Knights a way to play their characters and I want this thread rich in information and filled with players that really cares.

I am still talking about raid DPS. Mainly focused on single target DPS.

NEW TOPIC CONTAINS:

ONLY MY personal opinions
3 builds I observed
Raid dps conclusions
Runeforging tips
Glyph tips
Stats
Comparison


BUILDS

Link with the best DPS logs from raids:
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t43009-finding_top_raid_dps_3_08_a/

I have taken most of my information from:
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t37337-dual_wield_builds/
Sometimes there are really overtheorried posts which look at first look so perfectly but carefully. It's all theorry craft, so be carefull what to believe or not. However, best topic about Dual Wielding so far.

There are 3 builds I have been interested in all the time and personally tried them.

0/43/27 (+1) – Deep frost
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0exhxbRhoV0cZf0hhxckx0o

13/32/26 – So called Tri-Spec
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfV0cZG0ex0xbRhoZf0hhxckL0o

0/32/39 – Unholy Frost
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0ex0xbRhoZf0hhxckxcq0co


Deep Frost

Many people were asking me when I suggest using mainly frost spells why am I not deeply in frost for Guile of Gorefiend and Tundra Stalker.
So I tried it and the result was terrible. I blame Blood of the North for that. You simply have to go through this talent and waste there 5 points. Unholy operates much better here. The test was made on Heroic Boss Target Dummy and go try yourself if you don't believe, the difference was +-600 dps to the build I'll come soon to.

But others say?
Q: Our main s0urce is in spells when we use DW so WTF LOL?
Ninlei: Howling Blast is the thing you will see on top of your boss recounts yes but we are comparing here Unholy auto-attacks against more spell damage and Desecration and Crypt Fever gave me personally much more even I were running away from the desecrated area many times.

Result:
Deep Frost really freezed my DPS.
I am not recomending this build.


Tri-Spec

Tri-Spec is colorfull build made from all the schools that nasty Lich King gave us. I always try to calm down when trying to talk with Tri-Spec BLOOD enlightened ones.

Here we go, Tri-Spec was not the best build for me aswell. Unholy brings me much more hidden damage than critchance and power benefits from blood.

But others say?
Q: Dude now you suck bad but once you get better gear BLOOD PWNS it ALL in Tri-Spec. OMG!
Ninlei: I am loosing +-200 dps with this build against Unholy Frost one. Please count with me and tell me how much more armor I need to get those 200 dps up. It's all about +- values but in Tri-Spec DW I can't see any gear boost beneficial high enough to make it better.

Result
This is good spec, many people from the elitistjerks community have been raiding with it month ago in the starts when there were no bigger differences between these two builds (weapons). If you read latest discussion, Unholy Frost is the most praised build at the moment and I am very satisfied with it myself.


Unholy Frost

For me, the best build so far. Scales as I progress with equip. More and more I am doing better dps on single Heroic Boss Target Dummy. I recommend this build myself at the moment.

Night of the dead is worthy talenting when you have already Death Knight with Crypt Fever in your raid.


QUICK TESTS

Heroic Boss Target Dummy
Unbuffed single target dps

0/50/21 - +-2000 DPS
13/32/26 - +- 2400 DPS
0/32/39 - +- 2750 DPS

RAID DPS CONCLUSIONS

I would say after the patch my dps isn't as great as it was comparing to others, people are catching me but still this is a very strong build you can top your raid recounts with


SOME WWS LOGS

There is always a time for each log so they might not be available in time.

http://wowwebstats.com/rd2lj5dsdw66m
http://wowwebstats.com/c5h162m3dkngq
http://wowwebstats.com/o2m4adnhuk4nw
http://wowwebstats.com/els6ioezyir2q
http://wowwebstats.com/i22bvvicbzcjk

All these logs are with my last heroic only gear. No 25 man.

New gear WWS logs comming soon!


RUNEFORGING

http://www.wowwiki.com/Runeforging

Memento:
Fallen Crusader – FC
Razorice – RI
Cinderglacier – CG

There is not only FC. You are now using mainly frost spells so have a look at the link or click your Runeforging skill. Razorice is definately the Main Hand weapon rune at all times so I was curious about the offhand rune if CG or FC

Tests:

0/32/39

These are just the common combinations. I have been testing much more. RI/CG, CG/FC , CG/RI. RI/FC works best for me at the moment. But still there are people with RI/CG that are raiding in top US guilds and I don't get it.

FC: +-2700 DPS, Blood pressence
CG: +-2400 DPS, Blood pressence
FC: +- 2400 DPS Unholy pressence
CG: +- 2300 D/S Unholy pressence


GLYPHS
My glyphs:

Glyp of Icy Touch: 10% less damage, but generates 10 more runic power. Yes Death Coil.
Glyph of the Ghoul: 20% of my strength goes to the Ghoul
Glyph of Plague Strike
Glyph of Horn of Winter
Glyph of Pestilence: More range between the adds.


STATS

Everyone asks the same question: How much hit rating?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit
All melee
Dual-wield auto-attack: 918 hit rating
Special attack or Single-wield auto-attack: 295 hit rating

I don't suggest you going for 918. My personall way is to go for max 500 hit rating (think spell cap is 17%) but only if I have other stats in balance. I will always want to have over 20% Crit chance. Strength arround 1000 with 25 man gear. 250 hit rating made me missing 12% of all my hits.
Test
Percentual damage overally on boss encounters.
Howling Blast / Swings / Icy Touch
Old heroic gear: 29/19/9
4 drops from 25 man: 28/20/8

My swings are more and more important so as far as you keep your hit rating up and decrease misses you should do better. I was also testing with my friend with equal gear and he made always +-200 more dps on Heroic Boss Dummy than me. The only difference were the gems.

He had 440 hit, I had 260.

Result

Make Hit Rating as your priority. I don't recommend going over +-500 hit rating. Keep also your strength healthy for raid bufs benefitions. Have solid crit chance.


ROTATIONS

We have time for 3 HB's now so rotation goes like this:
(Thanks to Ughachaka)

IT >> PS >> HB >> BS >> BS >> RP dump
HB >> IT >> PS >> RP dump >> HB >> RP dump
(including glyph of Icy Touch)

AoE in 10 man must go fast so:
IT >> Pest >> HB >> BB >> BT >> BB

AoE in 25 man:

PS >> IT >> Pest >> HB >> BT >> BB >> ERW >> DND >> BB


FAQ

Slow/Fast? Fast/Fast?
I can't help myself but I tried different runes, different weapons and it's always the same. On the topic with best DPS results there are both DK's with slow/fast, fast/fast.

Is DW still viable after 3.0.8.patch?
Yes it's even stronger. Half 25 man half 10 man gear and I had 200 +- more DPS.

Should I go DW when I have really low hit rating?
Of course, you can get very nice dps even with low hit rating. And YES because you want to play DW.

Is DW better than 2H?
Bye

Is this build loosing too much comparing to other classes in 1 target boss fights?
No, half 25 man, half 10 man gear made 5400 +- dps on Patchwerk with 25 man MH, 25 man OH, 330 hit rating, arround 26% crit chance, +-1000 strength

I don't like the idea of pets, are they a big deal on bossfights?
Ghoul does a deal there 340 dps +-, gargoyle got a bit nerfed but still I think worhty a point. Night of the Dead is a great talent aswell as I explained.

So this is the best spec for all times for DW?
No, this is the best spec I've tried so far from variety of specs I could really try. In the time when I was writing here my answeres was that build for me the best and I was performing the best DPS.


Thanks to:
Laín, Zipian, Ughachaka, Hymn, <RR Inc>, DW community


SUM-UP

World of Warcraft is still game that is based on calculations but be sure you enjoy playing Dual Wield Death Knight because you like Dual Wielding. Don't play it because you see some of my WWS logs where I toped against 2H DK. The overall focus on rotations depends on it and seriously don't mess with one handers when you are more into two handers.

Contact me online on Ravenholdt. I would be glad if

Nice effort, thumbs up!

I hope to see the thread grow and improve.

nice stuff, hope you dont get flamed by to many idiots, only issue i have about dual wielding is idiots who think its for tanking :S

Interesting post.

Personally, I wasn't too thrilled about the output of Necrosis and BCB, so I specced deeper into frost to get Frost Strike, Guile of Gorefiend and Tundra Stalker (15/49/7).
That increased my dps from some 15-1600 to 1800ish, from a spec similar to yours.

ill be honest.... TL;DR
but i can pretty much guess the content of the post and all i can say is this... i have seen a hybrid bloodcaked DW DK before and he wasnt bad... not upto unholy/blood dps but not far off and since DWers seem to scale better with gear i can see it becoming quite nice

Thank you for the comment Mirae.

I don't feel I will go deep into frost right now but personally Unholy Presence combined with Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blade I find more dps additive (White attacks are for me I think 25-30% damage from me) BUT I am really glad you found that out for yourself and if you bring your raid recounts I will be glad to include them into my post because there is a possibility you would over DPS me with your build even I am pretty much sure about my posted spec.

Thank you once more

I would love to see some WWS logs if possible from any dwing dps-knight, even if just out of curiosity. I just love the 2h-based playstyle now, but probably towards the end of wotlk if not sooner I'll be bored enough to try dw out :)

anyway in aoe wouldnt icy -> plague -> pest-> howling give better results, its 1 sec for extra disease on all the mobs your killing, after that you can refresh diseases by using different target for pestilence. Anyway you wont loose a howling from using plague since you already used a frost rune for icy touch.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to see some WWS logs if possible from any dwing dps-knight, even if just out of curiosity. I just love the 2h-based playstyle now, but probably towards the end of wotlk if not sooner I'll be bored enough to try dw out :)

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For example here:

http://wowwebstats.com/srwlzdbfucqcs

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Q u o t e:


For example here:

http://wowwebstats.com/srwlzdbfucqcs

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Thanks!

It is strange that gargoyle didn't add more dps for you than 1 point in impurity, it nukes for 1700+ hit when I solo in my gear.

Unholy presence seem to lose it edge over blood presence when you get more crit.

Here is copy/paste from another thread (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=6986801941&postId=69858147761&sid=1#10)

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Q u o t e:
Here is a little part of math I did for Killing Machine with 30% crit and 2.7 mh and 1.6 oh weapons and no haste.

in one gcd KM have 27.75% chance to proc (49.4% crit on frost spells with 1.5 sec interval)
2 gcd with no frost spells KM have 47.8% chance to proc (63.5% crit on frost spells with 3 sec interval)
3 gcd with no frost spells KM have 62.3% chance to proc (73.6% crit on frost spells with 4.5 sec interval)

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So with high crit 15% dmg can be better 15% more auto attacks because it adds to all spells not only auto attacks.

Definately. I was talking about super fast adds like Satharion ones. Will edit it soon with more information.

Thank you

its nice1 :D

Well done Ninlei! Good read. Reported for sticky.

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Q u o t e:
It is strange that gargoyle didn't add more dps for you than 1 point in impurity, it nukes for 1700+ hit when I solo in my gear.

Unholy presence seem to lose it edge over blood presence when you get more crit.

Here is copy/paste from another thread (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=6986801941&postId=69858147761&sid=1#10)



So with high crit 15% dmg can be better 15% more auto attacks because it adds to all spells not only auto attacks.

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Once more I have been testing with my new build in Blood Presence with more crit and yes I did 100dps better reults, my post is upgraded now and I thank you for that.

In regards to your update, there seems to be some confusion in this part:

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Q u o t e:


Stance:
Blood pressence - The difference of the dps between Blood and Unholy was 100 dps on boss target dummy.

Once more check my talent trees I posted up here ... You did? Great!. ... Unholy / Necrosis . Blood-Caked Blade
Congratulations, I am glad to tell 99% of you guys that now you understand why Unholy Pressence.

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Q u o t e:
In regards to your update, there seems to be some confusion in this part:

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And I thank you very much for that.

Great post, though I think you should use (Microsoft) Word or similar programs to spell things, as your english isn't the best. Good effort, though, keep it going :)

http://turecc.deviantART.com

Great effort :) Really glad that someone actually tests in this game instead of rambling around the forum how DW sux.
I am DW tanking and must say that my dps is pretty high for a tank spec when in dps gear - around 1200-1400 sometimes as i use mostly spell for dps/tps when tanking.
and with the current sqwishness of the ghoul is it staying up in raids to contribute enough?

I see no reason as to why this should be stickied.