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Wryxian
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  • 0. Thoughts about Death Knights [Updated 08/12]   02/12/2008 10:02:41 PST
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Here's a message on Death Knights from WoW designer Ghostcrawler. The original thread from the US can be found here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13129078969&sid=1

We’ve had a lot of questions about death knights recently. This is a new class, and while we’re thrilled overall with how it's been received, we always expected to have to make more changes to death knights than the classes that have had their talents under the microscope for many years.

We’re not prepared to announce specific changes to DKs yet, but here are some general areas we are tinkering with. Most of these changes apply predominantly to tanking death knights, so I avoided cross-posting this thread, but there are probably items of interest to dps specs as well.

1) Death knights seem to tank well when they have cooldowns available and take too much damage otherwise. The change here seems obvious – boost Frost presence’s mitigation while reducing the mitigation of some other abilities, especially Icebound Fortitude and Bone Shield.

2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill. This lets the ability be less of a paladin bubble in PvP for dps knights, while still letting it act more like Shield Wall for tanks. It also has the side effect of making defense slightly more attractive to death knights. (Let me add before it’s asked that yes we understand Ferals have this problem too and we are working on it.)

3) Unholy is a very popular tanking spec, largely on the strength of Bone Shield. Expect to see some buffs to tanking talents in the Blood tree especially.

4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

5) We don’t like the behavior where DKs feel like they are supposed to drop Death and Decay to generate runic power before a pull. It just looks goofy. We will probably lower the runic power costs of Unholy Blight and Horn of Winter, which seem to be the primary reasons to generate RP. Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

I am refering to using DnD outside of combat just for the runic power (kind of like Bloodrage for warriors). It's totally legit and intended to use it to start a fight to gain threat and hurt the bad guys.

6) There are some odd situations caused by Shadow of Death that we would like to fix. The talent isn’t designed to let you escape durability damage or rez by zoning into an instance.

7) There are some annoying parts of the non-pet ghoul. We want to lower the aggro range (for less accidental pulls) and spawn the ghoul in quicker when dismounting. The ghoul, at least Unholy’s version, could also use some AE avoidance like other pets.

8) We are probably going to add a new spell to let you raise fallen allies so that you don't have to make the decision between bringing back another player (which was just supposed to be a fun bonus) and bringing back your ghoul, which can be pretty crticial for some specs.

This isn't everything we're talking about of course, just a little preview.

[update 08/12]
WoW designer Ghostcrawler has created more posts on the topic of Death Knights since last week, some of which contain the following updates:


We are aware that DKs may be struggling more to get defense. They lack tanking weapons, shields and guns, all of which can provide defense to warriors. It's something we're working on.

We're also working on Blood AE.

We would change the Horn of Winter glyph (to something like duration).

I would not expect full itemization for two-handed tanking weapons. We wanted DKs to tank with dps two-handers (and have their mitigation benefit somewhat from the dps stats). We might add a craftable weapon or something down the road, but only if that felt like an option for the DK, not a mandatory piece of gear. You can also dual-wield tanking weapons if you want, but again, it isn't the intent that is the only way to play. (Please don't turn the rest of this thread into a discussion of whether or not DKs should be able to dual-wield.)

Rune Strike is a tanking ability. It was designed to let DKs make up for the fact that their threat suffers so much from hits that fail to land. It does suffer from a confusing tooltip (which we have since fixed) but it is the DK who must avoid the attack to get Rune Strike to light up.

We still like DKs as the "active abilities" tank. We just think it might be a little too extreme right now. Icebound Fortitude was intended to be something you use when a big, predictable damage spike is coming, but DK tanks seem to want to keep them up 100% of the time for fear that they will die without them.

[ Post edited by Vaneras ]


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  • Twisting Nether
  • 1. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:04:58 PST
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first?;0 reading, will update

EDIT:

Awesome changes. The parts toning down seem fair, the buffs/fixes are in areas well-needed.
IMO.

[ Post edited by Lekki ]


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  • Stormreaver
  • 2. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:09:12 PST
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Dammit I got beaten to posting it >:P

Oh well thanks for the heads-up anyway ;), the Runetrike thought doesn't come as a big surprise really, but I am curious about how the tanking changes will flesh out.
IBF linked to Defense makes me a sad DK btw :< Even if it makes sense :P

Mark of Blood: Apply directly to rogue.
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  • Stormscale
  • 3. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:13:30 PST
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DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY RUNE STRIKE
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  • 4. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:15:10 PST
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Looks good overall.

Don't get the Death n Decay phrase in regard to horn of winter and unholy blight, rebuffing horn in between fights is similar to what warriors have been doing for ever, its not an issue. Similarly, unholy blight is not hard to keep up while tanking or DPSing.

About Rune Strike, flashbacks of World of Roguecraft: "there there my darlings, we'll nerf Rune Strike".

After all we ARE playing World of Roguecraft.
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  • 5. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:15:58 PST
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Sad about Runestrike indeed, though needed.. :)

The changes with tank gear seems promissing, and on a site note... MORE SIGILS!

It's because the speed of light is greater than the speed of sound that idiots appear brilliant before saying something stupid
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  • Dragonblight
  • 6. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:18:13 PST
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Some well needed buffs - Glad to see Blizzard is taking care of the Death Knight class.
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  • Dunemaul
  • 7. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:20:44 PST
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A thing you should add to summoning a Ghoul, is make it something similar to warlock's soulstone please, it gets a bit expensive when you're a PvPer!
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  • 8. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:21:21 PST
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Q u o t e:

About Rune Strike, flashbacks of World of Roguecraft: "there there my darlings, we'll nerf Rune Strike".

After all we ARE playing World of Roguecraft.


Can't have any class capable of killing Rogues now can we? "Oh warriors were giving you a hard time for a few years?, here have dismantle to kill them"... Blatant favouritism for one class in pvp is overwhelming.
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  • Twisting Nether
  • 9. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:29:29 PST
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Q u o t e:


Can't have any class capable of killing Rogues now can we? "Oh warriors were giving you a hard time for a few years?, here have dismantle to kill them"... Blatant favouritism for one class in pvp is overwhelming.
Yeah, the blatant favouritism for hunters and Retardins :(

Anyway, keep this ontopic.
I see nothing bad with the nerf on rune strike, it WAS needed. And I've shelved my rogue, it's just my prettiest non-female Avatar :3

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Sze
  • Runetotem
  • 10. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:39:18 PST
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I understand the nerf on Rune Strike. Any DK complaining about it wouldn't know its full strength.

What I was wondering is if there are going to be any changes in PvP for the DK. There are many people, like me, who only PvP.

The sword is the soul..
Study the sword to know the soul..
Evil mind, evil sword..
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  • 11. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:46:08 PST
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first i was like: "NO GOOD DAMN IT! they gonna nerf uss ******** back to rogue -.-'"
after "ah nothing bad, just rune strike and Bone shild i rarly use gonna get nerfed :D"
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  • Ravencrest
  • 12. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 10:53:17 PST
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Few things I'd like to have looked at.

Ghouls - Avoidance talent: Needed for Raiding.

Ghouls in Arena: Need to let ghouls be summoned for free in the Starting area having usually to summon 2 ghouls per game at least = 1g a match and no other class even comes near.

Corpse Dust Cost:

Even if Ghouls survivabiltiy is increased there is very big chance it will die mutliple times in bg/arena/raiding compare its costs to other reagents and the amount of time the reagents are used in 1 hour. For example can associate the cost of a rogues poisons by the amount of the poison vs how long it stays on the weapon vs how long ghoul lasts/how many times it needs resummoning in any given environment. Suggest to lower corpse dust cost to 10-15 silver per corpse dust.

Ghouls in Battlground: Once again it should be made that if a Death knight dies with his ghoul still alive he spawns the gy with his Ghoul. Also currently if someone releases their spirit it still requires a corpse dust ro res a ghoul, due to people usually releasing spirit instantly even a gcd can stop you from ressing a ghoul free of cost, suggest letting released spirits still count towards free ghoul.

Diseases and Abolish: Considering Death Knights are not the most burstiest of classes suggest giving an inbuilt talent or increase unholys talent to reduce dispelling diseases, ( the diseases themselves don't do so much damage) removing of diseases dramatically effects any sort of dps for the Death knight considering strikes rely on the diseases being up.

When they are dispelled not only do you have to waste 2 gcd's to get disease back up (only to be dispelled again) but it severly effects rune management in order to get the burst in.

Death Knights are great in the sense that they were very tough, but considering you are talking about nerfing some of our damage reduction talents i suggest allowing something for us to create better burst or give us more of a pvp effect.

One on one in pvp we are good don't get me wrong but put us in a group pvp Envirionment and despite the amount of interupts we have with CC etc in the equation means we aren't as great team player, we need more of a pvp gimmick vs some classes - note blood plague doesn't work exceptionally well. - Priests have hots but can remove our diseases, druids have hots but can also CC us exceptionally well
Shamans can also remove our diseases but we can interupt them.

Just feeling that we need something to help us combat healing rather than just an interupt (which all melee classes have on the short cd..) and strangulate on the 2 minute cooldown, and whilst death grip also can interupt its in the same boat as using charge/intercept to stop a cast (and warriors have burst and ms)


Last but not least: Ebon Plague does not stack on mobs - This means in a raid/group pve environment only one Unholy DK is benifiting from having 3 diseases on the target, which means if there is more than 1 unholy dk in any raid one of the DK's DPS will be nerfed greatly (Yes i understand variety is good, but in the cases where we want to still bring 2 DK's because say they are friends or all round good players its not fair to get penalized.. no other class has this.)

Thanks for listening!

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  • Defias Brotherhood
  • 13. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 11:01:48 PST
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I whole-heartedly agree with these points.
Rune Strike being one of them, practically being an "i-Win" button against Rogues.
And I'm glad to see the Shadow of Death issue being addressed, after countless #%###%#%@%-up spawns in Wintergrasp, causing me to die after having ressed as a Ghoul, or even some times where I cancel the ghoul, only to be taken out of the Res timer, waiting a whole minute to be ressed, was really getting on my nerves.

Although, If I may be so picky, may I request that a controlled, Risen Ghoul be given the same treatment as Warlock and Hunter pets, whereas in Battlegrounds you will be ressed with your faithful pet beside you, instead of having to waste yet another Corpse Dust on needlessley summoning the damn thing again.
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  • Balnazzar
  • 14. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 11:04:54 PST
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Well I´m going to miss my runestrike. *Sob* Not that I´m suprised by some of changes.
Now you could also take a peek into DK tanking itemisation(especially if you change icebound fortitude scale with defence) and fix wandering plaque since it attacks neutral mobs.

[ Post edited by Nerud ]

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  • Twilight's Hammer
  • 15. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 11:34:45 PST
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Excellent, I'm glad I left my hunter to gain rest bars till level 90. It seems you do want this class to succeed, perhaps becuase you put so much effort in it with such a low deadline, you were probably forced to release Wotlk sooner so here you are doing immediate changes.. Well done :)

So far, I'm enjoying the changes I see except for Runestrike, it is indeed a powerful spell but isn't the opponents' expertise a factor here ? I may have a high chance to dodge/parry but my enemy will not have an empty expertise percentage which will make my dodges/parries less likely to occur while playing.. (well except when casters/hunters autoattack with melee weapons, then it's a sure dodge/parry :P)

But, I can't say I really care since we have so many amazing abilities to counter any class (regardless of what some people say)..

What I would like for you to possibly concider :
Is putting permanent portals to the Alliance/Horde capital cities in Ebon Hold for easier access instead of flying for 5-10 minutes to a destination.. I know this can't be hard seeing as you already put portals there during the leveling session of the DeathKnight so I think this will make things easier when we need to visit an AH real quick or get to a city to beg a mage for a portal to Dalaran and so on..

Thank you

[ Post edited by Seregor ]


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  • 16. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 12:08:44 PST
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Great news

TO THE GROUND, BABY
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  • Khadgar
  • 17. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 12:13:56 PST
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PLEASE while your at these buffs, change our tier gear to something more usefull and add more sigils.

While unholy is the tank/dps/pvp/leveling-tree, Frost is the tank/dps/pvp/leveling-tree.


oh, in case you're wondering, blood is the tank/dps/pvp/leveling-tree.
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  • Grim Batol
  • 18. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 12:41:29 PST
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I liked the changes, but i have some suggestions i would like that were looked into.
A)Horn of Winter - Please make it last 5 or 10 minutes, why 2 minutes? it is way too short and very annoyning for dks to have to stop what they are doing to just recast it again
B)Dancing Rune Weapon - Why such a long cooldown for a 51 ability? In a way, Gargoyle a low tier talent in Unholy is way better than DRW atm. On it's duration DRW is only usable during raids bosses fight. and last 20-26 seconds max, while gargoyle lasts 1 minute. This ability had such a promise when we knew nothing of DKs but saw that shiny new ability that you summoned a sword to fight with you.
C)Corpse Dust - No comments on that, too expensive and i hate to have to keep using those because my ghoul died, can't we have another way to harvest corpse dust, similar to a warlock soul shard?
D)Plague Strike - Too low on damage
E)Sigils - Gief! We only have like 3-4 of them in the entire game.
F)Swords - Most during the Wotlk Content pre-raid all i could find for lvling were two handed axes, why couldnt we have some swords as well? I lvled from 70-80 without even touching on a Two-Handed sword because all Axes i got from dungeons(only sword i saw in a dungeon was in drak'tharon keep).

[ Post edited by Sethuriel ]

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  • 19. Re: Thoughts about Death Knights   02/12/2008 12:50:48 PST
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Yeah nice.. it's just a 'soft landing' for a nerf..

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