Vulajin's Roguecraft Spreadsheet Version 0.4.0 LK is now available, so I was messing around with it. No, that's not a new FAQ/guide.

Download link: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t27244-roguecraft_spreadsheet

Settings: Buffs unchanged, gear is 4/5 T7.25, other items I picked the best of this weighted list: http://www.lootrank.com/wow/wr.asp?Cla=8&Max=40&Str=1.1&mh=1.4&mcr=1.5&Agi=2&mhit=1.6&map=1&Sckm=140&arp=1.2&Exp=1.6&Ver=5
Best in slot or not I don't care, but they seem reasonably good for my purpose. Trinkets are Meteorite whetstone and Fury of the 5 Flights. I whacked in some blue (quality) gems and combat cycle is 4s/5r, which seems to better than 5s/5r/4+e ("1 evis per cycle"), but 5s/5r/(4+e) may be optimal ("1 evis per cycle IF you really have alot of spare CP and snd time"). Poisons are hit capped (17%) of course.

Q: 15/51/5 or 7/51/13?
A: We can finally nail down the build with Serrated Blades as being the optimal choice. Quoting the author: "I had previously stated that I believed there was something wonky occurring with armor penetration procs/effects in this sheet. I no longer believe that to be the case. Everything seems to be in order at all stages of the armor penetration calculations."
So with Deadly Slicer/QB:
15/51/5: 4844 DPS (ruthlessness enables a 3-finisher cycle here)
7/51/13: 4867 DPS (4s/5r)
The difference is not a big deal if you adjust the cycle. The lethality build should be better for trash/5mans.

Q: Which poisons for combat?
A: That was a tough one. While the Pocket guide on EJ suggests DP/WP, I've found some weapon combinations where that was not true. So I've tested *all* reasonable weapon type combinations with a 2.6 main hand and 1.4-1.6 speed off hands. Obviously not only weapon speed, but also sword spec extra procs have an influence on poisons. I'll spare you the endless list, but here the results:

Without SS (fist/mace MH and dagger/fist/mace OH):
OH speed = 1.4: DP/WP
OH speed > 1.4: WP/DP

With SS (either MH or OH sword or both):
OH speed = 1.4: WP/WP
OH speed > 1.4: WP/DP

Couldn't find a rule for 2.5 main hands, so it's best to use the spreadsheet yourself if you happen to weild one. WP is only getting better with faster weapons, so WP/DP can't be entirely wrong.

Q: Combat or mutilate?
A: While mutilate has the edge in a perfect world, both are reasonably close so you can (and should) choose the spec considering your preferred playstyle and your available weapons. I have to admit that one was old news ;p

Q: What combat weapon spec is optimal?
A: Again, since all 3 (and all possible combinations) weapon specs are pretty close in DPS, the available weapons are the deciding factor. You want a fast offhand and a MH with high DPS. Yes I did not say slow main hand, since the difference between a 2.5 and a 2.6 MH was 10 DPS in favor of the slower one. It looks like WP evens out the instant dmg loss a bit. Yes, Silent Crusader is a good main hand. I've found (all 2.6 MH/1.4 OH):

sword/sword > fist/sword > mace/sword > mace/mace > fist/dagger > mace/dagger > sword/dagger
(OH fists/daggers are interchangable)

All were within 100 DPS. Don't be irritated by the list above, since some daggers are 0.1 or 0.2 faster than comparable swords, a sword/dagger combo can be your best choice.

Q: How much DPS is X weapon speed?
A: Quoting the author:
"Fiddling around with this version of the sheet, it occurs to me that weapon speed has an interaction with DPS output that kind of precludes any simple equivalence comparison between weapon speed and weapon DPS, like the one we used to use with Combat Potency. Basically, the faster your weapon gets, the greater the DPS gain you will experience by increasing its speed further (or in other words, by reducing its listed weapon delay by 0.1). So for example, I found that going from 1.5 speed to 1.4 increased my DPS by 38, and then increasing from 1.4 speed to 1.3 increased my DPS by 45.

This results because the proportional gain in attacks per second per point of 0.1 weapon delay increases as your weapon gets faster. Thus, as that proportional gain increases, so does your proportional gain in poison procs (which are directly related to your frequency of attacks per second). In other words, each additional point of faster weapon speed increases your rate of poison procs by more than the previous point, thus resulting in increasing gains.

What this means for actual application is basically that it is hard to create a simple equivalence rule for comparing weapons. You basically must use the spreadsheet if you wish to compare weapons of differing speeds and DPS."

Q: Mongoose or Berserking?
A: If you happen to get the mats berserking, if not mongoose. AP/agi enchants are weaker than both.
Berserking: 4876 DPS
Mongoose: 4833 DPS

Q: Trinkets?
A: DM card: Greatness, Fury of the 5 Flights, Mirror of Truths, Bandit's Insignia > rest


edit: lol wall of text ><

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Q u o t e:
With SS (either MH or OH sword or both):
OH speed = 1.4: WP/WP

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I knew it! :O

And exceptional stuff Terra, we're all clueless nabs without you! :)

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Q u o t e:

With SS (either MH or OH sword or both):
OH speed = 1.4: WP/WP
OH speed > 1.4: WP/DP

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Just out of interest (I have no spreadsheet managing software atm/no spreadsheet/limited bandwidth to DL Openoffice), what's the difference between WP/WP and WP/DP, and what's the difference between Sword/Sword and X/Sword in this calculation?

Edit: Very nice post however, I'll go back to reading and no doubt edit this later :P

Edit2:

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Q u o t e:
sword/sword > fist/sword > mace/mace > fist/dagger > mace/dagger > sword/dagger

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No mention of mace/sword?

Edit3 (and last one :P):

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Q u o t e:
Q: How much DPS is X weapon speed?
A: Quoting the author:

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This is in general yus? Not specifically applying to Mutilate?

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Q u o t e:

Q: Mongoose or Berserking?
A: If you happen to get the mats berserking, if not mongoose. AP/agi enchants are weaker than both.
Berserking: 4876 DPS
Mongoose: 4833 DPS

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Happen to have some figures on the passive AP/Agi 'chants hanging about? Not a big deal either way ofc with how cheap 'goose is.

Some additional info on Darkmoon Card: Greatness.

Its the bigges RNG *@!# only comparable to glaive drop rates, be prepared to loose hair. You need a lot of outland gerbs and Eternal Life's to be able to make the "Darkmoon Card of North". Then its RNG that what will drop off from it as it can be any 8 cards from the 4 packs.

GL!

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Q u o t e:

Just out of interest (I have no spreadsheet managing software atm/no spreadsheet/limited bandwidth to DL Openoffice), what's the difference between WP/WP and WP/DP, and what's the difference between Sword/Sword and X/Sword in this calculation?

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Can post the whole list in a seperate post. Poison differences are pretty low.

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Q u o t e:

No mention of mace/sword?

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That's a bit of a problem talent point wise ^^

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Q u o t e:

This is in general yus? Not specifically applying to Mutilate?

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That was about mutilate only I belivieve.

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Q u o t e:

Happen to have some figures on the passive AP/Agi 'chants hanging about? Not a big deal either way ofc with how cheap 'goose is.

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Agi/AP were 60ish DPS per hand behind mongoose, so that's no option for the serious raider imo.

As promised:

FIST/DAGGER 5/5 CQC

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 5010
DP/WP: 5025
WP/WP: 5023

Calamity's Grasp / Omen of Ruin; 2.6 / 1.5
WP/DP: 4949
DP/WP: 4944
WP/WP: 4938



FIST/SWORD 4/5 CQC, 5/5 SS
(dagger off hands hacked to sword type)

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 5077
DP/WP: 5078
WP/WP: 5090

Calamity's Grasp / Omen of Ruin; 2.6 / 1.5
WP/DP: 5007
DP/WP: 4990
WP/WP: 4996

Calamity's Grasp / Widow's Fury; 2.6 / 1.6
WP/DP: 5013
DP/WP: 4982
WP/WP: 4988



SWORD/SWORD 5/5 SS
(main hand fist and dagger off hands hacked to sword type)

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 5093
DP/WP: 5081
WP/WP: 5105

Calamity's Grasp / Omen of Ruin; 2.6 / 1.5
WP/DP: 5021
DP/WP: 4991
WP/WP: 5011

Calamity's Grasp / Widow's Fury; 2.6 / 1.6
WP/DP: 5027
DP/WP: 4083
WP/WP: 5001



SWORD/DAGGER 4/5 CQC, 5/5 SS
(main hand fist hacked to sword type)

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 4997
DP/WP: 4999
WP/WP: 5009

Calamity's Grasp / Omen of Ruin; 2.6 / 1.5
WP/DP: 4934
DP/WP: 4917
WP/WP: 4923



MACE/DAGGER 4/5 CQC, 5/5 MS
(main hand fist hacked to mace type)

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 4994
DP/WP: 5010
WP/WP: 5007

Calamity's Grasp / Omen of Ruin; 2.6 / 1.5
WP/DP: 4934
DP/WP: 4929
WP/WP: 4923



MACE/MACE 5/5 MS
(main hand fist and all off hands hacked to mace type)

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 5014
DP/WP: 5029
WP/WP: 5026

Calamity's Grasp / Omen of Ruin; 2.6 / 1.5
WP/DP: 4953
DP/WP: 4948
WP/WP: 4942

Calamity's Grasp / Widow's Fury; 2.6 / 1.6
WP/DP: 4965
DP/WP: 4945
WP/WP: 4939

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Q u o t e:
no mention of mace/sword?

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Q u o t e:
That's a bit of a problem talent point wise ^^

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http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=02520510000055142231005011510050200000000000000000000005020030030000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000

Though, I'm unsure about whether it would be better to max Sword spec, and drop the single point in SC. Or, drop another point from Sword Spec (or possibly 1 from Mace spec) and max SC. (No spreadsheet at work and now.. monitored DLs at work -..- )

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Q u o t e:

Though, I'm unsure about whether it would be better to max Sword spec, and drop the single point in SC. Or, drop another point from Sword Spec (or possibly 1 from Mace spec) and max SC. (No spreadsheet at work and now.. monitored DLs at work -..- )

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Hm ok it's possible, calc says 5/5 MS, 3/5 SS, 2/2 SC with 2.6 mace / 1.4 sword would be the best of those combinations.

MACE/SWORD 5/5 MS, 3/5 SS
(main hand fist -> mace and off hand dagger -> sword)

Calamity's Grasp / Webbed Death; 2.6 / 1.4
WP/DP: 5033
DP/WP: 5035
WP/WP: 5052

Would put Mace/Sword combo 3rd behind sword/sword and fist/sword.

Fury of the Encroaching Storm should be good after Bandit's Insignia for early 5man and raiding.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36871

It's a quest reward in howling fjord and really easy to get - gives 44 haste and a ondemand 280 AP for 20sec with a 1min cooldown.

Cheers for the numbers =]

Edit:

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Q u o t e:
Would put Mace/Sword combo 3rd behind sword/sword and fist/sword.

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My random guess-prediction worked... Without me even realising you can't meld Mace/Sword like you used to be able too. >_>

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Q u o t e:
Cheers for the numbers =]

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Q u o t e:
Furyterra, i didnt quite get your numbers with "hacked sword, as dagger ??"

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He means he modified the spreadsheet to tell it that the fist weapon was actually a sword, and that sword is actually a dagger, or whatever =]

Bumping, for selfish reasons!

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Q u o t e:
Q: Trinkets?
A: DM card: Greatness, Fury of the 5 Flights, Mirror of Truths, Bandit's Insignia > rest

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Are you absolutely sure about the Bandit's Insignia ? Concidering Grim Toll & Mark of Norgannon both seem rather better than it imo. :/

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Q u o t e:


Are you absolutely sure about the Bandit's Insignia ? Concidering Grim Toll & Mark of Norgannon both seem rather better than it imo. :/

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Maybe it has a high proc rate.

And a chance-on-hit Armour Pen proc is always gonna be a bit meh. I wouldn't roll on Grim Toll.