no comments, just send us back to the stone age :P

Just pointing out:
Judgement of Wisdom is bugging out bigtime this build. Proc rate is through the roof and multiple paladins are able to cast it on the same mob.

indeed

i mean okey probaly un balanced when a paladin nuke the hell out of 2 players and gos away with full healt. But se the other way rouges come gudge kick cheepshot kidny shot and what els when u gothed them to 20 % vanish and back with full healt whas like tath for over 1 year. now som other class finaly com to do some and then every one whining like hell, and they arent relly imortal

most classes can beat them just need som braincells

Don't nerf buff others insteed

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Q u o t e:
we already know that Blizzy devs suck so much!!
who cares about the changes, i think most of us are gonna rerolling!...

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Good Job devs there,its all tbc again tnx very much,judgements of the wise WERE a great add,they just suck at their form now...Hmm im sure that ret palas are going to reroll at least thats what im going to do...WAS VERY FUN playing with a ret pala,i hope you will change your minds there and think more carefully before any other "hotfix"

they deleted my post lol

You gave us:
-Ds and neferd
-AoW and nerfed
-RV and nerfed
-SoL don't nerfed but you nerfed JoC...pratically half nerfed
-JotW nerfed
-repetance nerfed
I can imagine the conversation of the devs about repentance

Dev 1: paladin are too bursty
Dev 2: NERF REPENTANCE THEN!!
Dev 1: Good idea!

we lack always of the same things : snare, spell interruption, charge. We will see again healers laugh in front of us. welcome TBC

ok , i did some tests,and to me it seem that using the standard (wich u claimed it to be) judge cs ds rotation i wont go oom in pve,or at least i can go along for more than 10 min (i stopped at 6,50 minutes at about 70 percent mana,but it was slowly going down at every rotation).the problems come when i actually try to use some of my support utility (wich by the way are wat difference us from "pure dps class"),here i tryed to use some hand spell ,some aow proc and 1,just 1 holy light Imagine what?
i runned oom in 2,03 minutes.so uu might say "hey its your choice to use your resource to do something else than dps!" and i will answer "yes,but if i cant use my own utility,what differenmtiate me from the ""pure dps class""???"" so yes everyone will lower its dps if he tryes to do something else than use just and only his dps skills,but most of them(and i'm more talking about melee dps class)
wen reached "zero" resopurces ,has to wait way way less than us to regain a full bar to restart "PURELY DPS".
for the purpose of damage,using seal and judgement of command,i see a net loss of 300+dps using the "standard rotation",i havent yet tryed so martyr/blood but i will soon.

Now come to pvp:

i tryed some quick pvp here (a couple of bg,a couple of skirmish arenas and a couple of duels)
and i have to say in pvp the new JOTW is not enough,truly.
as i always stated pve is a matter of dps and resource longevity, but pvp is a matter of TOOLS
Now as you all know we always lacked of good pvp tools to fill the gap(redundant word GAP) with other classes,and im sure u wont deny we've been a little underpowered trough last YEARS(not weeks,YEARS).
So if pvp is a matter of tools,and the only tools we have are HAND spell,OFFHEALS,and some CLEANSE,how are we supposed to succed a relevant pvp encounter if we cant sustain our own utility?
NOw i agree the 3.0 burst was too much high,but if u are going to nerf it(and u are),and we are no more able to sustain our own little utilitys for more than 1 minutes,we are only going to loose pvp all over again as it was till pre 3.0.
to make it short in pvp i go oom,if i use my tiny tools in lesser than 1,30 min

I,ve made a couple of posts to give some of my and other pallys ideas to you devs,and i really hope u read them,wheter u like em or not.be prepared, the 1st is very long and badly formatted,but i think it can contain some interesting idea,much more on how to differentiate pvp spek from pve spek and a lot of suggestion on TOOLS
if i had to write down all my ideas it would have token an entire 5 6 pages so if u have something precise to ask i might responfd

post 1: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=6567846980&sid=1

post 2: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=6584578395&sid=1

Just to let blizzard know... (Since you asked) I still find that I eventually go /oom by just using the standard rotations (DS / CS / Judgement) obvioulsy I have JoTW. I however do not run out of mana if I use Judgement of Wisdom constantly (Great for PvE).

Now my problem comes in when I PvP, I like to use my Judgement of Justice to prevent the enemy from kiting me to my death. If the class should be a hunter / warlock / priest, I usually find myself unable to do anything except swing for white damage after a while. Since the JoTW nerf I find it difficult to keep my mana bar up to do DPS against other classes.

One can go into countless scenarios, I am not going to do that. I will patiently wait and see how this class is either going to become balanced, or destroyed once again.

I won't be deleting my character or any of that sort, but as soon as I find that I will be useless at PvP to do decent damage while keeping a decent amount of mana. That will be the day I will park my Paladin and reroll (Unless we get a buff or something again). I got pretty sick of the fact that no one really wanted a Ret pala in Arena's with them since they where kinda "in the way" of progress in the teams rating (Before we got a little OP with WoTLK talent tree) I just don't want this to happen again... I love my Paladin so much, eye candy spells, the way it plays compared to the other classes. I also chose the Paladin class because I knew I could either, heal / tank or dare I say dps...

I wasn't to badly hurt about the damage nefs, because I knew they were pretty high, I would like to add this however, if you found yourself against a player that knew how the Paladin's class worked and that player knew how to play his / her character, you found yourself in hotwaters.

I barely noticed the SoC and JoC nerf..
But it's sad we got released so strong and got nerfed so much.
Oh well :D

Guess paladins are jut never meant to be viable. Anywhere.

Ok my personal opinion is that blizzard has forgot what is retribution role in pvp.
It is supportive dps role. Wich means ret must heal very often also buff and help is commrades but with thatt tiny mana pool in wotlk and no decent mana regen ret no longer cant off heal and maybe not even buff his commrades with sacrifice and freedom cause he needs to sustain his mana to do some decent dps.
So i dont see any reason why the mana regen was nerfed :S. Did you blizzzard do any testings at lvl 80 with 0 int?
As for dps nerf i agree its needed. But the mana regen nerf is the thing that was not needed.
Im asking blizzard to reconsider about jotw nerf cause it was not needed.

Retri Paladins in PVP (changed my statement)

I would agree anytime a retri paladin do too much damage in bursts (or did before the hotfix). Can't survive a S2/S4 geared retri paladin for more then a couple of seconds on my nearly full S4 holy paladin if I don't have (everyman for himself) off CD to get out of the stun .

As far as I can see a retri paladin role in PVP is a high burst damage class and they should be since they hardly have any CC/Interupt/no "mortal strike" effect so their damage output should be higher then other classes wich have these abilities, but to nerf Judgement of the Wise to hardly give mana back doesn't seem fair at all. No use with alot of abilities if you can't use them.

Imo Vindiciton -20% stats seem overpowered tho.

Yes indeed ret style is to do high crits and good burst but i have seen many ret palas who dont even bother to do anything to assist their commrades. They are just newbs if you see good retradin videos then you notice that 30% of ret gameplay time is healing and buffing your allies with hand of sacrifice/freedom/protection and offhealing if its needed.

i dont really understand giiys,we always wanted a dev to post here, and now that we have 1 you dont answer to him?maybe u shy?maybe u are all triyng the changes and crying?lets post,the more we test and the better we do it,the best we end!!

Well is it me or blizzard only focus on nerfing the paladins. They think that all other classes and specs are balanced. Well many of em are far more overpowerd than ret pala now, and what does blizzard do nerfs palas even more. They clearly just listen the qq'er who are used to kill ret for free honor kill.
Arcane mage can 3 shot people
Boomkin does 7k starfire in pvp
Rogues still can do 10 stuns in one short arena match.
And blizzard has officaly announced that none of those specs wont get any nerfs at all. If you check the latest build its like this . all other classes, dmg and utility increased , paladin utility and damage lowerd.
I think here is very good proof that blizzard dont like this class. They think that balancing = making class underpowerd.
They have said o we try not to nerf to hard. Well you have done it and nerfed us to the ground.

Why do you hotfix it now instead of a few weeks ago while 3.0x was still in beta?

It looks that your test team sucks or that the developers that get the testreports where sleeping.

well weve been nerfed big time, I just hope my DPS will be comparable to a balance druid - they are Hybrid class DPS so that should be fair right?

At the moment a ret pallie dosnt stand a chance against balance druid dps - so perhaps we need a buff or balance needs a nerf - or perhaps Blizz is going back on its promise for us to do great DPS