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Q u o t e:
1.) Mind Flay - This is the fix:

Make it 30 yards, make it 86% dmg co-efficient, remove the snare debuff

+

add an inscription recipe to add the snare back


PvE = Sorted, we got range and viability
PvP = Sorted, we want to still snare we lose an inscription slot to it

Fixed

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Actually, this is one of the most spread 'rumours' of Shadowpriesting. Increasing the co-efficient alone ***WON'T*** bring it to a competive level as other classes spammable nukes. It will not fix the class issues in the long term.

What it will do is provide a short term solution to the underlying problem for a limited time - it'll bump up the damage at the start of gearing up / raiding / first couple of Arena Seasons. Then, as time goes on, every other caster will be able to take advantage of gear supplying more critical strike rating and more haste rating. Resilience will start to go way up again. As it doesn't scale with Critical Strike Rating, and is classed as a DoT for resilience calculations (ie every single tick is affected, not just crits), it's relative power to every other spammable spell in the game will decline again.

It's not solving the scaling problem, it's putting it off for 6 months. It either needs to somehow take advantage of critical strike rating, or we need more imaginative talents providing better benefits in the Shadow Tree.

Personally speaking, I like Wandering Plague in the Death Knight Unholy Tree:

Wandering Plague Rank 3

When your diseases damage an enemy, there is a chance equal to your melee critical strike chance that they will cause 100% additional damage to the target and all enemies within 8 yards. Ignores any target under the effect of a spell that is cancelled by taking damage.

Something like that, working from base character screen crit rating (ie Darkness *doesn't* bump the chance up), and maybe only increasing ticks by 75%. Thats somewhere to start, it'd make Critical Strike Rating useful, although we still have someway to go on Haste Rating.

Other 'easy' alternatives are... well, actually quite hard. The DoT classes look to be a pain to balance at both ends of the gear ladder. DoT's need to do a quite significant amount of damage more than nukes to be viable in end game if they stay as they are, except of course - that'd unbalance entry level raiding and early seasons of the Arena.

There's some nice attempts to try and balance DoTs with stuff like Haunt (Afflication Warlocks) as well:

Haunt Rank 1
12% of base mana 30 yd range
1.5 sec cast 10 sec cooldown

You send a ghostly soul into the target, dealing 645 to 754 Shadow damage and increasing all damage done by your damage-over-time effects on the target by 20% for 12 sec. When the Haunt spell ends or is dispelled, the soul returns to you, healing you for 20% of all damage done to the target.

But thats been theory crafted already, and it's just not enough for the other DoT spec in the game. I guess we could similar style extra DoT damage effects or procs - but in the long run, it's probably easier to let them scale like direct damage spells, and tune the base damage around that - at least the approach is consistant.

Wow. Hows this for quick service:

We'll be increasing Mind Flay's coefficient (base) by roughly 30% to start, and allow Mind Flay to crit. We may also do some tuneups to the Shadow tree as well, but as other players have mentioned the tree is really not the problem, just the base spells not scaling.

Hopefully we can get the new Mind Flay in the next build, but allowing it to crit involves rebuilding the spell completely, which may take some time.


Koraa
Blizzard Poster

(http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023697467&sid=2000&pageNo=3#43)

Should be interesting to see some numbers on how it effects Spriest DPS. I'm tentatively in favour - although still a little worried about the other DoTs running in the background, but it's a sensible place to start.

EDIT: slightly more complete response in http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=5640397011&sid=1

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Q u o t e:
Wow. Hows this for quick service:

[b]We'll be increasing Mind Flay's coefficient (base) by roughly 30% to start, and allow Mind Flay to crit. We may also do some tuneups to the Shadow tree as well, but as other players have mentioned the tree is really not the problem, just the base spells not scaling.

Hopefully we can get the new Mind Flay in the next build, but allowing it to crit involves rebuilding the spell completely, which may take some time.

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Quick for service! Ok, now we're where we should have been 2 years ago with Burning Crusade release....

How about dispel protection like UA for Locks?

How about increasing the range on mind flay so that we can finally raid without being in splash damage range of EVERY boss.

How about another ability we can spam if we get bored or break the mind flay key...

How about a "crowd control" that undead rogues don't have 100% (Trinket, WoTF, cloak-of-skill while we're still stunned) chance to ignore.

How about any escape mechanism?

Good start, finally responces in the priest forums, now start making the class as great as the talent review for retri pala's did...

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Q u o t e:
How about increasing the range on mind flay so that we can finally raid without being in splash damage range of EVERY boss.

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Name them?

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Q u o t e:

We'll be increasing Mind Flay's coefficient (base) by roughly 30% to start, and allow Mind Flay to crit. We may also do some tuneups to the Shadow tree as well, but as other players have mentioned the tree is really not the problem, just the base spells not scaling.

Hopefully we can get the new Mind Flay in the next build, but allowing it to crit involves rebuilding the spell completely, which may take some time.


Koraa
Blizzard Poster

(http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023697467&sid=2000&pageNo=3#43)

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That is so lame! So incredibly lame! I cannot believe Blizzard pulled such a cheap marketing trick at us. This change should have happened in WoW 1.0 version, not in 3.01 version! First they break the entire class to the point that they could delete it altogether and no one will miss it, making us very worried about it! Next move is to make us happy and play again like lap dogs and addicts and rejoice this FIX by making it seem like a huge buff! I will not fall for that! Idiots!

Canceled account yesterday. I have had it. Taking away utility to the point of no class distinction and then buffing Mindflay to make us happy! Cheap, so cheap! I will not fall for it.

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Q u o t e:


That is so lame! So incredibly lame! I cannot believe Blizzard pulled such a cheap marketing trick at us. This change should have happened in WoW 1.0 version, not in 3.01 version! First they break the entire class to the point that they could delete it altogether and no one will miss it, making us very worried about it! Next move is to make us happy and play again like lap dogs and addicts and rejoice this FIX by making it seem like a huge buff! I will not fall for that! Idiots!

Canceled account yesterday. I have had it. Taking away utility to the point of no class distinction and then buffing Mindflay to make us happy! Cheap, so cheap! I will not fall for it.

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Are you really that dumb or pretending it? Pre TBC, SP was a PvP spec anyway. In TBC, raising coefficients would be absurd with current VT, making it probably one of most overpowered classes in game. However, massive raid buff rework that takes place in Wrath, together with buffing "hybrid" dps is perfect chance to do it. What the hell did you expect, that they'd buff it the very first day of beta? When they probably didn't have VT sorted out?
But yes, please cancel, there's more than enough whining on these forums as it is.

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Q u o t e:
I know some Priests that are very happy with the changes in WotLK, but since this is a reply to you: Serawyn, can you tell me some of the specific things that you like and don't like about the Shadow talents in Wrath of the Lich King Beta?

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Ye i can find 1 or 2 of them myself....

The mainproblem, the worst tree is the shadow tree. I shouldnt even bother to link all GOOD and SERIOUS posts that have been made about it. When you give answers like that, we feel like you dont check out feedback on betaforums and this forum at all.
I understand that there is to mutch unserious posts all over the place, and just alot of whining, but that answer realy was a blow under the belt.

Ok, i post some links about the shadowpriests conserns to make it more easy for you:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765740755&sid=2000
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=68FBD9F5538855CF8AD8640BE7C9F51C.app05_06?topicId=9023697467&sid=2000 (this is a sticky on the beta forum)

And dont be afraid to visit http://shadowpriest.com/viewforum.php?f=54 a VERY large community of shadowpriests. You are welcome here to read out what some SERIOUS testers give in feedback.

Have a nice day.

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Q u o t e:
Quick for service! Ok, now we're where we should have been 2 years ago with Burning Crusade release....

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It's an evolving game, relax. Furthermore, the case with TBC is not the same as with WotLK. Changing VT mechanic apperantly opens up posibilities for more dmg, which was not the case with TBC. nderstand that TBC does not equal WotLK.

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Q u o t e:
How about dispel protection like UA for Locks?

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A far bigger portion of your dmg will come from Mindlfay, Mind Blast and SW:D with the buffs to crit dmg, spirit tap proc, etc. While it's still a concern, I personally don't think it is so bad as it currently is. Simply because you won't rely so much on the DoTs anymore. A bit like Balance druids and their DoTs.

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Q u o t e:
How about increasing the range on mind flay so that we can finally raid without being in splash damage range of EVERY boss.

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You get it increased to 30yds, untalented, through a glyph. Glyphs are easy to switch so it should be possible to have a long rnage Mindflay for PvE and switch to a short range (with the snare) for PvP. Everyone's happy.

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Q u o t e:
How about a "crowd control" that undead rogues don't have 100% (Trinket, WoTF, cloak-of-skill while we're still stunned) chance to ignore.

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All crowd control can be broken with trinket - also non-priest crowd control (OMG!... yes I know -_-). Anyway, you can invest 2 talent point and get a 4 sec horror duration on your fear which won't break from WoTF and you get your Dispersion for defence. So it's not like you don't get anything. But I guess it's the "more wants more" kiddy mentality :P

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Q u o t e:
How about another ability we can spam if we get bored or break the mind flay key...

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Shadowpriests probably have one of the most active spell rotations of all classes currently. Try count the amount of spells you use in your spell cycle and compare them to the fire mages 1-2 or the destro lock's 1. Don't ask for the mindless, lame, boring 1 button spam spell please. You'll destroy the flavour of the spec then.

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Q u o t e:
How about any escape mechanism?

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Well you get your Dispersion which you can move around in, guess you can call that an escape mechanism. Furthermore, currently priests will get to train Divine Hymn at lvl 70. There's your escape mechanism.

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Q u o t e:
Good start, finally responces in the priest forums, now start making the class as great as the talent review for retri pala's did...

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Rretri paladins were overdone. They have said that there are obvious problems with them too. So that's a bad comparison. Like the ret pala is going live with DPS that's over the roof, 2shotting bosses and what not, right....


I like the Mindflay change. It's a step in the right direction. And I think Koraa's pretty right when he says the talents are pretty ok. I at least only have minor issues with them. And thus it's mainly scaling and raw dmg numbers left. And tbc, people have asked for proper scaling on Mindlfay for ages, asking for it to crit as well. Now it comes. Great. What's up with the whine? -_-

The answer Blizz did give the first beta testers, before the last change, "Thank you for your feedback, Shadow Priests. We've got further review and adjustments coming your way. :-) ". The complains was most about our damage scaling.
Then the last patch did come and Blizz did take 5% damage away from the shadowtree and replace it with 3% hit that will be useless some months after release.
Not a good start to the "Thank you for your feedback, Shadow Priests. We've got further review and adjustments coming your way. :-) "

The blue poster Wryxian did write it him/herself. First he anounced changes, and now he dont know that we post feedback?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765571085&sid=2003

And we are still whaiting for the changes and adjustments that will HELP our scaling and lack of DPS and other problems........

MF that scales good and can crit, that was new and just incredible news to me :D AT LAST! (cant understand why i did miss that one)

As you can see in this thread, the Shadow Priest review is not done, and there will be buffs, like Mind Flay gets better scaling and can crit.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023697467&pageNo=3&sid=2000#41

Ye i saw that just a moment ago :) Now they need to put the crit proc from MF in to improved spirit tap to, and i will be a very happy smurf ;D
Good news....at last.

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Q u o t e:
I for one can't wait to get arcane missiles as a 51p talent!

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Q u o t e:


That is so lame! So incredibly lame! I cannot believe Blizzard pulled such a cheap marketing trick at us. This change should have happened in WoW 1.0 version, not in 3.01 version! First they break the entire class to the point that they could delete it altogether and no one will miss it, making us very worried about it! Next move is to make us happy and play again like lap dogs and addicts and rejoice this FIX by making it seem like a huge buff! I will not fall for that! Idiots!

Canceled account yesterday. I have had it. Taking away utility to the point of no class distinction and then buffing Mindflay to make us happy! Cheap, so cheap! I will not fall for it.

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I am sure that you leaving will be a blow to the entire priest community. Clearly giving Mind Flay the ability to crit and better scaling was the final nerf that you could take.

Guys dont be stupid....
Yes we got a cool new mindflay now, but at what cost? they took everything away from us and now we are supposed to be happy with a single spell buff?
I dont care if mindflay can 1shot gods, we still lost all that made shadowpriests good for raids. (o and we still suck in pvp too)

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Q u o t e:
Guys dont be stupid....
Yes we got a cool new mindflay now, but at what cost? they took everything away from us and now we are supposed to be happy with a single spell buff?
I dont care if mindflay can 1shot gods, we still lost all that made shadowpriests good for raids. (o and we still suck in pvp too)

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I think you missed the point and scale of this change. Blizzard is not out to get shadowpriests. Other classes got changed the same and being mana battery won't be the sole reason for being in raids, while your damage will be at bottom of the charts. It's a change to scaling, both through coefficient and using additonal stat.

Realize there was no chance of getting any significant damage buff with old raid utility. None. Having 2.5 dps today, with 5% VT = 625 MP5. That's like 50% more than fully buffed healers have. Enough to chain cast hasted max rank heals without stop - and anyone telling you he does it already is overexagerating. If you truly believe this could happen, you have no right to call anyone stupid, except yourself maybe.

But, I guess you're just one of those who expected 2+ spots in WotLK just because you're SP, while at the same time being irreplaceble and having your DPS match other classes. Sorry, it doesn't work like that anymore. And it's not just SPs. Raid utility is being spread throughout classes, while hybrid DPS is being brought up to make up for it.

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Q u o t e:
I know some Priests that are very happy with the changes in WotLK, but since this is a reply to you: Serawyn, can you tell me some of the specific things that you like and don't like about the Shadow talents in Wrath of the Lich King Beta?

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I wondered why the reasonable constructive proposals and analysis of the problems of our class always ignored?

Have you seen it?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023667426&sid=2003

I think, no, because no blue answer in that topic yet.

Pre-TBC saw already raiding PvE shadowpriests because of the VE and Shadoweave Buff. I don't know if they were in Naxxramas, but there were plenty of SP's in MC/BWL/AQ etc and most raiding guilds on my server had at least one SP in their raids.
I agree with you that a scaling mindflay would be overpowered in combination with VT, however this is only after a SP gets X amount of +damage. This occurs, if I believe it correctly only, in late BT or only in SW. So SW is only a few months out and TBC is going good for more then 1,5 year.
Blizzard could have buffed Mindflay in TBC beta when we asked for it.
To balance those changes they could have increased the mana cost of Mindflay or change the mana return for VT if they thought Mindflay and mana return were too overpowered. There were other options besides not buffing Mindflay or totally taking away utility.
It is a change that should have happened way earlier in the game.

The problem I am having with these changes is that my utility and uniqueness are gone, my debuffs generalized, my DPS will be generalized as well(hopefully). But that is not what I want. I spec shadow and play this priest because of the debuffs/buffs/utility I give to my group or raid and I enjoy that role. If I wanted to see high DPS, I would have rolled an other class.

Hmm, regarding the blue answers in this thread, the mentality seems to be "go try it in the beta and then give us feedback". I'm sorry, but 99%+ of the playerbase can't do that. But we still care about our class, and we have a lot of experience playing said class.

What's problematic with the holy priest spec and the current phase of beta testing, is that holy priests play very different for solo play, 5-man parties and raids. So no players in the beta knows how the new holy priest plays in raids, as there are only 5-mans available to them. While there's little or no point in downranking heals in 5-man groups (as most ppl won't go oom) and CoH isn't used all that much either, as ppl are usually too much spread out. This changes entirely in a raid setting.

From my experience in raids, I usually end up keeping renew(s) up, bouncing a PoM and either spam-healing Gheal rank 2 or max rank Gheal with cancel-heal on tanks. Or raid healing with CoH, quick single target heals where needed and possibly shielding ppl in fights with big bursts og when tanks are about to go bye-bye. The most important tool I have is CoH, I can instant-heal a lot of raid members, and I need to spam this a few times to get ppl above x% hp so they can take the random-targeted y amount of damage some boss does. As my guild is casual and doing hyjal atm, what comes to mind is fights like VR on melee, Solarian, Hex Lord, bird boss in ZA, lynx on melee, D&D done by Rage in MH, Carrion Swarm from Anatharion (spelling?).

Point being, 2/3 of most raiding priests ways of healing are getting changed around and either nerfed or rendered impossible (downrank-spamming). Beta testers can't give feedback on this, as they're not raiding yet. Yes some of us holy priests are concerned