Download current dps spreadsheet (link in sig or just google it if you dont trust the link).
Import your character from armory.
Respec to hemo/combat potency on the talents tab.

Check your results, it appears hemo/CP scales better with gear too.

ok, downloaded the latest one.
hemo/CP shows indeed more DPS than in the previous versions and also beats cbt/swords (including the hemo raid buff). I sense a bug in the spreadsheet tbh.

Agreed could be a bug (quite likely tbh) but it's always possible...

For me personally, the various hemo speccs I've tried has been a lower dps than my combat sword spec, but not by too much.

Ditto, previous spreadsheet had me -14dps, this one looks like its going to have me about +50dps. Probably bugged hence wanting more results to see if its just a fluke with weird gear combinations or if the spreadsheet is now "correct" (unlikely).

I mean the speccs I've actually tried out in raids in-game, not just on the spreadsheets. =)

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Q u o t e:
I mean the speccs I've actually tried out in raids in-game, not just on the spreadsheets. =)

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Touche :D (I can never find the right accent)
Ditto, I just might not be used to it (even tho its basically the same thing playstyle wise) but I went back to combat swords for an evening and truely sucked on the DPS meter. This has me fighting for top slot even with the debuff so the extra damage im tossing to the other raiders.
Meh - we shall see.

Well imho it depends on your play style and what you enjoy the most. If you enjoy hemo more than combat and can still compete about the top dps spot, then for heaven's sake, there's nothing wrong with being hemo. =)

Well the spreadsheets will always show higher dps than in game meters unless you toggle off the option to include the raid benefit of the hemo debuff. Lower personal, higher raid dps, if all charges are used and if there is only 1 hemo rogue. I'll stay with 20/41, thanks anyway.

The point where Hemo-Combat Potency would noticably outperform the trispec hemo build for example, would be a point where Combat Potency generates more energy/second than Relentless Strikes does.

Relentless Strikes regenerates 25 energy/15 seconds on avarage in a trispec-hemo build. (It's the length of half the SnD rotation, and you get 2 finishers in each full SnD rotation)

Combat Potency yields 15 energy on roughly every 5th offhand strike, so you'd have to get 5 * 25/15 = 8.3 offhand hits in 15 seconds to at least get your energycycles going. Which means that a 1.8 speed OH would be enough to keep this going, provided that you're hit capped. So for a 1.5 speed weapon or faster, you wouldn't even have to be hitcapped. But I bet you'd definitely want a +hit rating well above 200 to pull off with this spec in favor of the old fashioned tri-spec? Especially since you'll want *more* energy regen than what Relentless Strikes gives, since you also have to compensate for dropping Malice, Ruthlessness, Murder and 1 point in Dirty Deeds.

But, if the numbers from the spreadsheet are right on this, then you might be on to a 25-men raid spec. Definitely NOT for Kara/ZA though, since faster hemo spam will mean you will overwrite your hemo debuff more often. With 3-4 physical DPS in a 10-men raid, hemo lasts just about the 3.5 seconds before you reapply the debuff. This amount won't go down much faster than that, but cutting your application time to 2.5 - 3 seconds will mean you won't use all the charges, which means the debuff gets overestimated in the spreadsheet for 10-men situations.

Hemo/CP would be 0/40/21.

So essentially you're betting on:

1. Hemo @ 110% > SS w/ imp. SS, Aggression & SA
2. Serrated Blades > Malice + Relentless Strikes + Ruthlessness + Murder + Lethality

No way in hell the spreadsheet is bugfree if it says that.

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Touche :D (I can never find the right accent)

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Touché (é = AY, as in Gay)

Touchay, if you like :>

The spreadsheet seems bugged to me, the results for hemo/cp are VERY different from any previous spreadsheet. So unless some mechanic was recently discovered that somehow makes this spec better, I would bet on the sheet being bugged.

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Q u o t e:
Hemo/CP would be 0/40/21.

So essentially you're betting on:

1. Hemo @ 110% > SS w/ imp. SS, Aggression & SA
2. Serrated Blades > Malice + Relentless Strikes + Ruthlessness + Murder + Lethality

No way in hell the spreadsheet is bugfree if it says that.

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Hmmm, your another rogue I can usually happily quote chapter and verse with.

As per Azshara's post above tho, this MIGHT be working due to high hit (im up in the 320ish range raid buffed).

1) Hemo does (per hit) slightly less damage than sinister strike.
However it tosses out the debuff too, If we assume the hemo debuff is consumed (in 25 man its gone almost instantly soon as theres more than a couple of duel weilders) and the debuff CAN be refreshed every 4 seconds (tho obviously you need to SnD and rupture still too) thats an extra ~80dps (could hemo every 4 seconds if you did nothing else, which would be 105dps from the debuff, we'll assume a good bit lower as you need to SnD/Rupture too) your bringing to the table (albeit not personal damage).

2) Hemo gives a slightly cheaper main attack to sinister (35 energy vs SS talented at 39). That's a better coefficient for energy vs combo points and possibly energy vs damage (you get nearly 3 full hemo's from a full energy bar, only 2 from SS). You have the energy conservation/regeneration natively throughout the cycles rather than just a free attack after a finisher. When you add serrated blades you (slightly) improve the performance of all attacks as well as adding 30% to rupture which is increased further once you have a feral present too.

It's missing some juicey looking talents ill happily admit, but it's possible it's just generally more energy efficient. Cheaper attack + not loosing combat potency + keeping the debuff up more.... dunno. I've been specced this way a while, i've tried returning to combat swords a few times but always slipped down charts as a result - VERY possibly just not used to fractionally different mechanics.

Would one of you die-hard combat sword guys give it a try? Had 1 try it in another thread and had good results (but could just have been focusing especially well as testing new build). Would very much like to see a BT/MH level skeptic give it a go.

posted in other's thread already:

Boss debuffs
Sunder Armor 5
Curse of Recklessness 1
Curse of the Elements 1
Shadow Weaving 1
Misery 1
Improved Hunter's Mark 1
Expose Weakness 1030

Raid Buffs
Bloodlust/Heroism 1
Fortitude 1
Mark of the Wild 1
Battle Shout 1
Blessing of Kings 1
Blessing of Might 1
Strength of Earth Totem 1
Unleashed Rage 1

0/40/21 1919 DPS (personal + raid debuff)
0/40/21 1783 DPS (just personal)
11/28/22 1923 DPS (personal + raid debuff)
11/28/22 1788 DPS (just personal)
20/41/0 1929 DPS (2/4 vile, 2/2 impEA)

that is w/o feral druid presence and buffs (with them, swords comes ahead by 20 DPS against hemo builds including debuff in newest 2.4.0.9 spreadsheet, as well as Aldriana's gear sheet, almost same results). And with food buff, I'm just 5 HR close to hit-cap.

can't really plug ur toon, since ur half-pvp geared there atm.

again. this was tested by theorycrafters few months back:
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t14321-rogue_combat_vs_hemo_point_inflection/
since then, there was non essential change to rogue dps mechanics, thus statement from that discussion is still valid. hemo will perform better up until SSC/TK. It will not outperform combat swords with T6 gear and above. And as far as I remember, hemo isnt more energy efficient than SS, since linked EJ thread proves SS DPE is higher than Hemo's.

I'm not die hard combat rogue, i was hemo trispec back in times and i think it was much more fun to raid with. But while approaching sunwell's brutallus there is no way I will consider inferior spec as a way to go.

edit: on a side note, I think you should post your results on dps spreadsheet thread Kitteh. I get exaclty same results with my gear plugged in with 2.4.0.9 and 2.4.0.7a spreadsheet versions, but thats said, spreadsheet is far from beeing bugfree.

Ill post mine up tonight. At work at the mo so no access to a machine that can use the macro's on the spreadsheet properly. Might nip home on lunch if I get uber-bored (could use a shower too as I was late outta bed this morning, not JUST to post here :p)

As an aside tho - I notice no shammy buffs? Just add them in anyway, we have an enhancer in the melee group usually, can't see it making THAT much difference but I dont see what else could be so widely varied between our results.

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For me personally, the various hemo speccs I've tried has been a lower dps than my combat sword spec, but not by too much.

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I dont know how you managed to figure that out because i am basically having different dps every fight. Sometimes i go 2k, sometimes 1500 and thats on the same boss :D

Its most likely a bug. Try the other spreadsheet (the gear one) which has a better track record with these sort of things.

Edit: The hemo debuff in the spreadsheet is giving me +150 or so dps when its enabled, which seems too high, though could be possible if your using hemo more often with combat potency.

If you leave out sinister strike and hemo then its a comparison between serrated blades versus malice and vile poisons. the -armour and malice are pretty close, with vile poisons being close to the extra damage on rupture when you take into a lower rupture uptime. So its a comparison between sinsiter strike with all the goodies versus hemo. Regarding the energy cost and looking at some wws of Brutallus it looks like youll essentaily be doing the same amount of hemos and sinister strikes except sinister strike will be doing roughly 30% more damage. So essentaily it comes down to the hemo debuff making up for the damage lost from using hemo against SS.

Well its serrated blades that help a lot here, in addition of hemo.. :P stack armor penetration = win

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Q u o t e:


Touché (é = AY, as in Gay)

Touchay, if you like :>

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No, that's not the correct pronounciation.

Whatever.