This is a thread to discuss the speedincreases (quite a few avalible for us today), and the sweetspots for effective combatspeed for slow weapons once the avarage and max speedincreases are applied.

It's since long declared, mathematicly proven and further tested that the slower base weaponspeed the better. This we can all agreee on, the base for this is in short;
3second rule for WF, if the weapon is too fast it will miss out on a lot of WF's due to CD.
You can have max 19wf's per minute (60/3 and allow for a millisecond between CD and WD).
The slower weapon, the bigger share of your AP will come to use during those WF's
The higher maxdamage, the more punch you get from your 10s CD Stormstrike.

Now to the intresting part, speedincreases with slow weapons (2.6+speed).
The more speed you put into the weapon, the more white swings you get = more damage. about 40% of your total damage are normal white swings. The more the merrrier.

However you whant your MH to swing as shortly as possible after the WF CD is over to have maxchance to "chain" WF's with your mainhand. This means that you normaly prefer your MH speed as close as possible but slightly above 1.5speed, since this is the most common sweetspot. (never worth to take medium to fast weapons just to hit a sweetspot, slower are still the king no matter what)

Since there come more and more speedincrease items, both procs and static ones the discussion about sweetspots are more important now. The sweetspots (or threshholds) just a tad slower then 3sec/1 3/2 3/3 and 3/4 = 3s, 1.5s, 1s and 0.75s. This is to ensure you have a MH strike as soon as possible after a WF is down.

Ideal would ofcourse be to have a highdps 2.7 weapon constantly at 0.76speed. This however is seldom the case ;)



Now, to the real question that needs to be mathematicly proved and tested;
When you go from for example 1.51 to 1.49speed it's well known that you loose a fraction of your total DPS (lets call this crossing the threshhold). But going from 1.51 to 1.01 will increase your DPS by quite a lot. By how far do you need to cross the threshhold to gain DPS again? Since it's quite likely that it's a cross somewhere between a 2x and a sinus curve in the increase of DPS in relation to weaponspeed increase, but how does this curve look? I'd love to see a graph with various AP's ranging from 1200-2500 based on this. Anyone got the mathskills to present that?




Snorkle brought up anoth issue the otherday that is worth discusssing and computing is the value of synchorinized or asychronized weaponspeeds between mainhand and offhand. There are some theories about the value of synchronized weaponspeeds (same weaponspeed on both MH and OH), in order to allways have the same strikeorder if MH/OH in order to maximize that MH's WF chance.

Further, is it possible to ensure doublestrikes (when MH/OH autoattacks strike at the same time)? Since a WF proc from when you strike both at once have a tendancy to come from the MH.

Let the discussion begin, what are your thoughts. Have you seen any calculations on this topic?

we're putting a lot of focus on the times when we have Flurry and Bloodlust up but what abou tthe outerh 99% of the time when only flurry is activated.

You'll only loose dps with 2.5speed weapons and lower during those 45seconds.

dual weilding 2 2.6 (2.0 with flurry)speed weapons allows you (discounting stormstrike) only one WF ever 4 seconds when flurry is up surly this is lower than 2 2.4 (1.84 with flurry) speed weapons.



Conclusion, despite the fact i haven't made a discussion, blizzard you have invented game mechanics that make weapon choice (and with BT itemisation also amour choice) as mathematically intensive as choosing a mortgage

Hey I already calculated that aj :(

If haste effect is bigger than 8%, your DPS will go up.
If haste effect is smaller than 8% but you don't cross a danger line, your DPS will go up.
If haste effect is smaller than 8% and you cross a danger line, your DPS will go DOWN.

And I was the one to mention that no-disphasing thing 2 days ago!

Snorkle

i havent read it all because it will come out on the same thing.

buff enhancement.

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Q u o t e:
Hey I already calculated that aj :(

If haste effect is bigger than 8%, your DPS will go up.
If haste effect is smaller than 8% but you don't cross a danger line, your DPS will go up.
If haste effect is smaller than 8% and you cross a danger line, your DPS will go DOWN.

And I was the one to mention that no-disphasing thing 2 days ago!

Snorkle

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Sorry I should have credited you for the sync part, will edit it in.

I don't quite follow your statement, it might be my blurry eyes atm thou. How will that interprit to the line between 1.01 and 1.51 threshholds? Clearly 1.01 yields more then 1.51, but where is the breakevenpoint?

Lets assume for example that 1.39 is the breakeven...

1.01 = optimal
1.01 > 1.39
1.39 = 1.51
Anything betweeen 1.39 and 1.51 is pooh... or such.

What I mean is that the cut-off varies with your speed.

If your speed before haste is 1.51, then you need to get faster than 1.39 to reap benefits from a haste effect (it is equivalent to a 8% haste).

If your speed is 1.63 before a haste effect, any haste effect is good.

If your speed is 1.55 before haste, you need to get 1.43 or faster to reap benefits from a haste effect OR not go below 1.51.

So it's exactly as you stated IF your initial speed is 1.51, the breakeven point is 1.39.

Snorkle

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Q u o t e:
What I mean is that the cut-off varies with your speed.

If your speed before haste is 1.51, then you need to get faster than 1.39 to reap benefits from a haste effect (it is equivalent to a 8% haste).

If your speed is 1.63 before a haste effect, any haste effect is good.

If your speed is 1.55 before haste, you need to get 1.43 or faster to reap benefits from a haste effect OR not go below 1.51.

So it's exactly as you stated IF your initial speed is 1.51, the breakeven point is 1.39.

Snorkle

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Exelent, your the king Snorkle, and i did get the 8% roughly correct (that is what I based my example on anyways).

To put it clear for the rest:
Avoid the speeds between 1.40 and 1.50 as well as 0.94 and 1.0

I'll draw you a chart. (paintskills 4tw!) a very aproximative chart:
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7918/chartrm8.png

Thanks for making this clear. Now all we have to do is figure out this synchroniziation busniess of yours :D

EDIT:
Disn't fill in anything after 0.76 since this is the last sweetspot and somewhere around there the wow hardcap on speed is... So no point in trying to get lower... Allso, this chart is ofcouse stated for SLOW weapons with speedincrease, not the faster baseweaponspeeed.

Anyone want to answer my question about the non bloodlust scenario

If we only have flurry, how do we balance stormstrike damage vs more WF.

2xrunic hammers vs 2xGladiators Cleaver(season 1)

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Q u o t e:
Anyone want to answer my question about the non bloodlust scenario

If we only have flurry, how do we balance stormstrike damage vs more WF.

2xrunic hammers vs 2xGladiators Cleaver(season 1)

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I don't have the numbers right now for it, but I'm pretty sure the extra damage caused due to the slow weapons during the WF's balance out the "dead" second between WF CD and next possible WF, in particular if you include the bonus SS damage.

That gap is however a good time to press SS...

Could possibly run some calculations for it on monday, will be afk from WoW and forums for some time starting about now...

EDIT;
I'm speaking for the Gladiators vs Runics ofcourse. And the more AP you have, the more gain from gladiators slower speed.

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Q u o t e:

Exelent, your the king Snorkle, and i did get the 8% roughly correct (that is what I based my example on anyways).

To put it clear for the rest:
Avoid the speeds between 1.40 and 1.50 as well as 0.94 and 1.0

I'll draw you a chart. (paintskills 4tw!) a very aproximative chart:
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7918/chartrm8.png

Thanks for making this clear. Now all we have to do is figure out this synchroniziation busniess of yours :D

EDIT:
Disn't fill in anything after 0.76 since this is the last sweetspot and somewhere around there the wow hardcap on speed is... So no point in trying to get lower... Allso, this chart is ofcouse stated for SLOW weapons with speedincrease, not the faster baseweaponspeeed.

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Sorry to make you repeat this mumbo jumbo.. I'm not much of a mathematician... So If we stack haste effects we have to make sure our end speed is between 1.0 and 1.39 ? So we, once again, gain benefit from WF to its fullest ?

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Q u o t e:


Sorry to make you repeat this mumbo jumbo.. I'm not much of a mathematician... So If we stack haste effects we have to make sure our end speed is between 1.0 and 1.39 ? So we, once again, gain benefit from WF to its fullest ?

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It's more like "If you don't make sure you're speed is NOT between 1.39 & 1.51 you're basicly shooting yourself in the foot ... AND arm ... AND head ... AND every other vital body part)

Oh, and the graph is wrong btw, it's should be more like _-'|_-'| and so on, but going slightly up though. (I can't type askew unfortunately :P)

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Q u o t e:
It's more like "If you don't make sure you're speed is NOT between 1.39 & 1.51 you're basicly shooting yourself in the foot ... AND arm ... AND head ... AND every other vital body part)

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hmpf... mongoose here i come ?

Actually that graphic isn't very precise, AJ. Here comes something (also made in paint).

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/984/untitledex3.jpg

A is the point where we are about to hit 1.50 speed, B is the point immediatelly after. As you see, the graphic is not continuous because of the immediate drop in DPS. C is the point at which your DPS is decent again (1.39 in case of a starting speed of 1.51).

Also, here are the "sweet spots" as you named them, for a few different starting speeds, as well as how much DPS you lose as you hit the danger line (in percentage):

Init.Speed - sweet spot - dps lost as you cross the danger line

1.50 - N/A - 0%
1.51 - 1.39 - 8%
1.52 - 1.40 - 7.8%
1.53 - 1.41 - 7.1%
1.54 - 1.43 - 5.6%
1.55 - 1.43 - 5.1%
1.56 - 1.44 - 4.8%
1.57 - 1.45 - 4.1%
1.58 - 1.46 - 3.4%
1.59 - 1.47 - 2.7%
1.60 - 1.48 - 2.0%
1.61 - 1.49 - 1.3%
1.62 - 1.50* - 0.6%
1.63 - N/A - 0%

* - rounding problems >_<...

Also, I've had a great idea about how to look at disphasement. I'm gonna make something about it tonight, for now I'm bloated (family lunch - boring, but lots of food) and can't think straight, need some digestion time. My idea is simple: assuming the normal mainhand speeds of 2.7 and 2.6, for each common offhand speed (2.2,2.4,2.5,2.6) check the average disphasement (distance between an offhand swing and the next mainhand swing), and with this calculate how many mainhand swings in average will be eaten by the offhand. To make it more "realistic" I just assume the chance that one offhand swing proccs wf ASSUMING that swing is not in the WF cooldown. Empirically it really seems to point out that 2.6/2.6 is BETTER than 2.7/2.6. Omg blizzard, do something :P this is getting ridiculous!

Snorkle

Sure appreciate the work ur putting into this lol... I'd have absolutely no idea where to start or seen this problem...

I spose you have no recommended haste ratings when you have a 2.6 or 2.7 MH/OH ?

OK so after all that maths what does it mean in practice,

What is the ideal (but realistic) Weapon speed for Enhancement shamans.
Gladiator weapons are 2.6
There are some 2.7 weapons

Obviously there are so many haste buffs that one weapon will neve rbe perfect but on average what weapon speed should we go for.

What should we use???

Ok here's the deal.

There are two common mainhand speeds. 2.7 (dragonmaw, reflex blades, planar edge, etc) and 2.6 (demonblood eviscerator, fool's bane, gladiator's XXX, decapitator, etc etc).

There are 3 common offhand speeds: 2.2 (fel edged battleaxe), 2.4 (runic hammer), 2.6 (boggspine knuckles, gladiator's stuff, harvester of souls, bloodskull destroyer, etc).

If they are the same speed (aka 2.6/2.6) then in no case can one offhand procc cut off more than 1 mh swing (assuming no haste effects, obviously).

If they are of different speeds, the swing timer diverges. Here's what will happen (time when swings will go off, assuming no parry or haste):

2.7 - 0 -> 2.7 -> 5.4 -> 8.1 -> 10.8 -> 13.5 -> 16.2 -> 18.9 -> 21.6 -> 24.3 -> 27 -> 29.7 -> 32.4 -> 35.1 -> 37.8 -> etc,
2.6 - 0 -> 2.6 -> 5.2 -> 7.8 -> 10.4 -> 13 -> 15.6 -> 18.2 -> 20.8 -> 23.4 -> 26 -> 28.6 -> 31.2 -> 33.8 -> etc too bored to continue. They will meet after 70.2 seconds. In the meantime, the average disphasement between the weapons is 1.25 seconds.

Now, as you can see, there will be times where a offhand wf procc will prevent the two next MH swings from proccing WF. This never happens in same-speed situations. It happens in... 6 of the possible scenarios, making it a 23-24 extra % to cut off a MH procc. Considering this happens only if the offhand before it is not in cooldown and proccs wf, we get a total 3.84% less windfuries!!! (3.84% of 20%, so like... a 0.77% lower procc chance).

If we use the same reasoning with 2.6/2.5, then we get the fact that they will meet after 65 seconds, the average disphasement is 1.2, the offhand will prevent proccs from the mainhand in 8 of the swings, meaning a 32% extra % to cut off a MH procc, meaning 5.12% less windfuries or a total of 1.02% lower procc chance.

Same thing for 2.7/2.5 we see they meet after 67.5 seconds, average disphasement is 1.2, offhand can steal proccs in 7 of the swings, meaning a 26% chance to cut off mh proccs meaning which translates into 4.16 less windfuries or a 0.83% lower procc chance.

2.7/2.4 meet after 64.8 seconds, average disphasement is 1.15, 7 swings can cut windfury, meaning a 6% chance to cut off mh proccs meaning which translates into 4.16 less windfuries or a 0.83% lower procc chance.

2.7/2.2 meet after 59.4 seconds, average disphasement is 1.05, again 7 swings can deny mh proccs, meaning again 6% chance blah blah 0.83% procc chance.

2.6/2.4 meet after 64.4 seconds, 1.15 average disphasement, 9 swings can deny a procc of windfury (ignore my english, I've got a monstrous headache and I'm writing on autopilot). 5.5% less windfuries, 1.1% lower procc chance.

And I frankly won't continue. Conclusions: as we expected, the faster, the worse. Really, using weapons with different speeds WILL be ... eh... the opposite of beneficial to your DPS... detrimental that's it. So use 2.6/2.6 or 2.7/2.7.

Snorkle

Final statement: Oh... my FLUXING god, blizzard developers, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?!?! For <beep> sake, who in blazes has to calculate all this crap just to be able to optimize their DPS?! In the name of all that is good in this game, do something ELSE to windfury, this is ridiculous... Reduce the procc% and make the cooldown just weapon dependant... Or something, whatever... And now, off to bed...

I knew I'd one day find a use for that maths professor I keep locked in my basement.

/pat Snorkle

Thanks for all the hard work Aj/Snork, great info, even if it's depressing conclusions :-(

Nice posts, good read.

Kinda disheartening to see that my plan going for dragonmaw + runic hammer isn't really "good choice". Great weapons and good damage but feels bit odd to take "punishment" by not taking 2xgladiator weps or those blue 2.6speed unarmed weapons.

Oh well they still aren't bad weapon combo even they aren't optimal. Blizz please change WF mechanism that 3sec CD sounds and looks more broken every day.