I was extremely bored when I couldn't log on yesterday, so I did some calcing about the benefits of each stat.

Also, if my calculations are correct, it could be usefull to others as well. Please point out my wrong calculations if there are some, because I'm pretty sure i screwed up somewhere along the line:)

And i appreciate constructive posts and usefull information on this forums instead of whine.

edit: Changed some calcs slightly based on input later in this thread, appreciate it:)

I'll try to make this as easy explained/written as possible.

(conclusion at the end, skip the math if you want:P)

Basics first:

First of all, each stat has a value on an item.

+1dmg costs 0.855 to increase on itembudget, while +1 spellcrit costs 1. So +dmg is cheaper to increase than +crit. (compare +8 critgems to +9 dmg etc)
School specific +dmg costs 0,7. (spellfire uses this formula afaik, even if it's 2 schools)

+1 spellhit is also worth +1 on itembudget/lvl.

You need 22.1 critrating for 1% more to crit and 12.6 +hit for 1% to hit.

Easier to calc is +1% hit. +1% hit will give you +1% dmg, and is cheap and easy to increase. Aiming for +16% hit should be the goal for raid bosses. It will improve your dps the most for the smallest ammount of itemcost.
edit: it's actually slightly better than 1%, and also since that missed spell could have crit, giving you 1/3 mana back, it also passively improves efficiency by a little bit.


Now here's the first interesting calc that alot of people are forgetting.
People assume 1% more crit will give them 1% more damage. This is wrong. That is assuming you already have 0% crit, which you probably don't.

Assuming you have 30%, which is ok, each +1% to crit will increase the damage on 70% of your spells by 1%.

For full fire that is 70% of 1.1% (with ignite) = 0,827%. Meaning 22.1 critrating will increase your dps by 0,827%.

For arc/fire, theese numbers change a bit, also assuming 30% crit already for easy calcing. For 22.1 critrating = 70% of 1.45 % (spellpower and ignite) = 1.010%

(edited this after calcs from others:)

This means, critrating is a little bit more beneficial to arc/fire than full fire, which is no surprise.

But now let's look at full fire and +dmg. Seeing as +dmg gets benefit from all the firedamage increaseing talents (13%) then +1dmg is +1.13 dmg.
But people also often forget here that they do not have 0% crit, as the +dmg can also crit.
Assuming once again 30% critrating, +1dmg = 1.13 x 1.3 = 1.469.

Let's assume you never get coe, only the +15% scorch dmg debuff.
Afaik the talents are also multiplicative, meaning +1.469 x 1.15 = 1.689

If you're spamming fireball, add another +5% to the effect +dmg gets
(imp +emp fireball is total +105% of your +dmg, damn coefficiency nerf;)
(scorch gets +43% for half the cast, obviously alot worse for dps)

So each point of +1dmg is worth +1.689dmg while +1 critrating is really worth +0,827 critrating, assuming 30% already critrate.
(meaning you need ~26.5 critrating for about 1% total dmg increase)


Meaning +dmg is TWICE as good for increasing your dps as critrating is.
I repeat, TWICE the value. And it's cheaper to increase, as it costs less on itembudget than critrating does.

Now for another calc, which will be fairly inaccurate. ~+26.5 critrating will give you +1% more dps. (as full fire) Easy numbers.

How much will then ~+26.5 dmg give in dps increase? First off, with talents and current critrating, +26.5 dmg converts into +44.75 dmg.
(I could even be cheesy and add another +10% to those +dmg numbers, as +dmg is cheaper on itembudget, but I won't, since this is to compare items.)

Now the calcs get a bit harder, as it's assuming so much about your current gear, and how much dps increase 1% is etc.

So on a 3 sec cast fireball: +26,5dmg x 1.689 --> 44,75 /3 = 14.91 dps increase.
While 26.5 critrating will give you +1% more dps. Meaning you'd have to do 1491+ dps for +1 crit to get better than +1dmg. It's possible, but would take ALOT of +dmg for crit to get better.
I'm guessing 1000dps is realistic on a static bossfight with none or little movement. (from experience)
If your gear is lower, +dmg will get even bigger benefit.

+crit will be better than +dmg eventually on scaling, but at a ridicilously high ammount of +dmg.


But as a closing note. Crit is also good for MOE and procs and similar, so shouldnt be ignored.
And also, stacking a single stat on an item is more expensive on the itembudget than stacking 2 different ones.

So an item with +50dmg and +20 crit will off course be better than just +60 dmg. (and also help MOE etc)


Edit: I did the same calcs for arc/fire, and I think the conclusion was that at about 1200dps, self buffed only, crit gets better than +dmg. 1200+dps can be hard to pull off through a whole bossfight, but if your +dmg is already stacked skyhigh, (I'd guess +1300 dmg or more) AND you have the lightning capacitor, then crit will increase your dps more than +dmg will.

At 40% crit with scorch, which is high, will make the capacitor proc every 11.25 sec on average, adding ~900 dmg average with crits. = +80dps. Allthough scorching is a bit lower dps than fireballing would be, this trinket helps make up for the difference, and you'll be more mana effective as well.


Conclusion: +hit will actually give you highest dps increase on raid bosses, up to +16% with talents, while generally you should be stacking +dmg, while getting the odd crit on items when you can. Chosing the same ammount of +crit on an item instead of +dmg is generally slightly gimping your dps in total.


Ps. Runed living rubies in everything unless the socket bonus is really worth it.
Or the new +hit +dmg gems if you can find them, Veiled Noble Topaz.


Edit: please correct me, I'll edit or heck, even delete the post if i screwed up majorly in the math and I'm totally wrong:) I don't want to give out wrong info or confuse people:) If I'm right, please confirm as well:)

Math geniouses, I call on you!



Edit: see page 2 and the post from Tivelositos, he's better at this math thing than I AM:)
His post is the kind of reply I was hoping for, and it converts +dmg hit and crit to nice % values:)

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Q u o t e:
So lets convert those formulas to a real world example. Let's take a fire mage with 900 spelldamage, 100 hit rating, and 30% to crit with fire.

+50 spell damage would mean (B+c*(D+n))/(B+c*D) = (902.5+1.035*(900+50)) / (902.5+1.035*900) = 1885.75 / 1834 = 1.0282 which is 2.82% more DPS.

+50 spell crit rating would translate to 2.26244 more crit chance (1.1*(C+n)+1) / (1.1*C+1) = (1.1*(0.3+0.0226244)+1) / (1.1*(0.3)+1) = 1.35488684 / 1.33 = 1.0187 which is 1.87% more DPS.

+50 spell hit rating is 3.96825 more hit chance on top of the 7,93651 hit chance the mage allready has (0.83+H+n)/(0.83+H) = (0,83 + 0,0793651 + 0,0396825)/(0,83+0,0793651) = 0,9490476/0,9093651 = 1,0436 meaning a whoping 4,36% more increase in DPS!

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Ps. check my other sticky for additional mage raiding tips:)

The reason I recommend runed living rubies instead of the +8 hit gems is because +dmg is allways usefull, and it's easier to switch in a few high +hit items for bosses, depending on Totem of Wrath, Dranei in your party etc, making your gear alot more specialized for each encounter.
And getting to hit cap isnt very hard to do, so extra hit over +16% would be wasted.

Nice post, already suspected that +crit isn't as usefull as +dmg.


Btw, Veiled Noble Topaz is my favorite :).
http://www.thottbot.com/i31867

I believe you're neglecting a powerful stat which I've been evaluating myself on items once I got new ones - Intellect. Mainly because this stat is vastly underestimated and often to all the time results in higher crit than crit rating. Anyway, I believe incremental damage modifiers like scorch debuff and CoE should be ruled out Because it makes the calculation crazy f.x. ignite is fire damage and thus gains 15% more damage when you have scorch debuff - making firemages crit for not just 150+40% but 150+40+15% (Adds up to 196% critical strike damage when the ignite runs out) which is not quite +1% incremental damage per 1% crit as you initially assumed - more like 0,96% - that and I believe your base assumption of 30% crit chance is vastly overestimated - Go with 15% or so - and then add the fire-specific crit chance talents (I think it totals to about 24% or so).
Anyway, I'm tired so your calculations get a /cheer.

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Q u o t e:
I believe you're neglecting a powerful stat which I've been evaluating myself on items once I got new ones - Intellect. Mainly because this stat is vastly underestimated and often to all the time results in higher crit than crit rating. Anyway, I believe incremental damage modifiers like scorch debuff and CoE should be ruled out Because it makes the calculation crazy f.x. ignite is fire damage and thus gains 15% more damage when you have scorch debuff - making firemages crit for not just 150+40% but 150+40+15% (Adds up to 196% critical strike damage when the ignite runs out) which is not quite +1% incremental damage per 1% crit as you initially assumed - more like 0,96% - that and I believe your base assumption of 30% crit chance is vastly overestimated - Go with 15% or so - and then add the fire-specific crit chance talents (I think it totals to about 24% or so).
Anyway, I'm tired so your calculations get a /cheer.

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I do not think ignite double dips in scorch debuff as it did. They fixed/nerfed that afaik. I might be wrong though, but someone confirm this.
I seem to remember even testing it myself once to check. If it's still true that it doesnt work anymore, it's a real shame, as it was very nice and would help mages abit to compete with locks and make crit a slightly more desirable stat:)

Also I don't think assuming scorch debuff on a target is really pushing it:P
I made the calcs without MOE if I remember right (can't bother to hit back button to read again, but think i left it out, since it's not allways on)


But why would 30% be overestimated? And off course it's for fire spells only. I myself have 32% crit with Molten armor, so I assumed 30% wouldnt be pushing it too much? Also it's a nice round number. Having 28% or anything similar won't have much effect on the calcs anyway obviously.


Now over to int. You do realize I'll have to give you math again now?;)

Ok, it's 59.5% int for 1% crit. Int is worth the same as crit on itembudget. Meaning 60 critrating = 60int. meaning int from critrating = 3%, compared to 1% from int.
On +dmg it's something like 60 int =+68dmg or something on the itembudget, which translates to something like +110dmg with my formula from earlier.

Would you honestly have over +68 more +dmg or 60 int?

I'm not saying having int is bad, it's nice to pick up a few "leftover" stats on items with +dmg or even crit stacked high already.

Also, people will argument with mana. 60 int = 900 more mana. Not too shabby. But in any decent length fight you have between 20000 and 25000+ mana total, with gems, pots, evocation, buffs etc, the higher end if you are lucky enough to have a shadowpriest in your group. (more with shaman etc)

~4% more mana and 1% crit isnt bad at all, so it really depends if you need the extra mana. If you do fine in bossfights, then ~33 more dps from spelldmg is better imo. (add 15% to int stats for arcane mages:)

I think the conclusion would be to not ignore the stat, but it's not exactly our primary stat either, ironicly:)

Assuming you have 30%, which is ok, each +1% to crit will increase the damage on 70% of your spells by 1%.

this seems wrong,that would mean that if you had 99% crit getting 1% crit more would take it to 99.1% instead of 100%,it´s always 1% crit on 100% on your spells

there is no real fixed formula for it as at different numbers the importance might be different, I don't know if you even toyed around with theorycraft, but when it's working right (meaning all the newest skills/ttalents etc are it just tells you straight up the avg dps/dpm of each spell.... it helped me a lot of times and I encountered several cases where my "hunch" was wrong according to theorycraft.

depending on each persons gear/talent build the situation will be different

on int: it'is a very important stat for arcane mages as they gain 15% extra int and 25% of the int > spelldamage (and them ofc emp am).

arm I'm lvl 67 and my gear is crappy but I still have 550 spelldamage, about 440 int (8520 or so manapool) and almost 18% flat crit (w/o molten armor)...ofc Arcane blast gains another 6% from talents...which adds up to nice numbers for a levellingchar :P

a big mana pool is very very nice to have to keep up the highest DPS spell ingame, AB... when needed those few extra might make the difference...

up untill the talent change I tried all kinds of specs and settled for the spec that packed most punch imo 17/31/3...after the talent change I tried all trees a bit but nothing even comes close to arcane when it comes to DPS'ing both burst and steady, mana efficiency and even alround fun.... once I ding 70 I'll prolly do 48arc/13 frost tho, it'll give all the +hit from talents for both frost and fire, 225% crit frostbolts/ice lance (for solo'ing) and 6% additional frost damage, with still the max damage you can get from AM/AB/IAE

You should get more +hit swindley :p

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Q u o t e:
Assuming you have 30%, which is ok, each +1% to crit will increase the damage on 70% of your spells by 1%.

this seems wrong,that would mean that if you had 99% crit getting 1% crit more would take it to 99.1% instead of 100%,it´s always 1% crit on 100% on your spells

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Yes I understand your logic. And your last sentence is right. But think about it like this:

1% hit will increase both crits and hits, easy to understand.
1% crit wont increase the damage on the spells that are already crit. Therefore it will have no effect of the 30% already crits in increasing your total dps.

Example: you do 1000 dps throughout a fight, crits and everything included. 1% more crit will not give you 1010 dps, as it won't increase your crits by 1% as well. It will only increase the non crits by double, or 110% in case of ignite.

This late, the math allmost makes my head hurt, but think about my example logicly for a sec:)

If you had 99% crit and got 1% crit more. That means roughly double damage on 1% of your spells.
This would equal about 0,5% dps boost total.

If you're REALLY interested, I'd show you the math with examples:)
0% crit and you get 1% dps boost with 1% crit. 99% crit you get 0,5% total dps boost with 1% crit roughly:)

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Q u o t e:
You should get more +hit swindley :p

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Off course I switch out gear for bossfights:) Like spellstrike hood, scryers bloodgem and a few other items. I'm not quite at 16% total yet, but i think +12%. Still waiting for moroes neck and stuff:)

And once I find some guy with the new spellhit/spelldmg gems, my gear will soon look abit different:D

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Critical_hit_chance
might help a bit

I don't think it's valid to add %age damage modifiers to bonus damage, as they effect bonus damage and crit equally. The only factor you need on the spell damage bonus is the co-efficient for that spell.

Also, I'm not sure but apparantly a crit can't miss, so crit gets a little boost from that.

Also, in an analagous way to how crit diminishes, hit does the same. However, it's different as 1% hit is actually always greater than a 1% increase in damage, and tends to 1% at 100% hit chance.

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Q u o t e:
I don't think it's valid to add %age damage modifiers to bonus damage, as they effect hit and crit equally. The only factor you need on the spell damage bonus is the co-efficient for that spell.

Also, I'm not sure but apparantly a crit can't miss, so crit gets a little boost from that.

Also, in an analagous way to how crit diminishes, hit does the same. However, it's different as 1% hit is actually always greater than a 1% increase in damage, and tends to 1% at 100% hit chance.

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Afaik the way spellhit calcs work is like this. First it calcs wether it hits or not, THEN whether it crits. If not, your critrating with a damagemeter would be articifially higher than the critrating your character screen says.

If you have 30% crit, then 30% of the spells that hit will crit. If you'd have 100% crit, it doesnt mean your spells would never miss.

This is also proved by combustion:) You can have 100% chance to crit with it and still get a resist on a raidboss or whatever (been there done that:>)

And damagemodifiers is important, they increase your spelldmg:) Your crit damage ammount is a result of your spelldmg+ base dmg:)
For crits, you have critmodifiers, like ignite and spell power. Both are important to calc with:)

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Q u o t e:
But now let's look at full fire and +dmg. Seeing as +dmg gets benefit from all the firedamage increaseing talents (13%) then +1dmg is +1.13 dmg.

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This is where you simply stop reading, as some already stated your making a totaly unfair compare in favor to +dmg.

These talents increase your DPS just as much no matter if it comes from crit rating or +dmg that is irrelevant, thoes talents increase you total DPS. Im also pretty sure you are wrong since there is no logic to why +dmg would be cheaper if it was better in the game.

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Q u o t e:
So on a 3 sec cast fireball: +28dmg x 1.689 --> 47,29 /3 = 15.76 dps increase.

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Here you forgot that a 3sec cast fireball get a 10% penalty on +dmg.

Also you do keep in mind that crit benefit from MoE thatis true but you must also take instant spells and AoE spells into account all of them have heavy penalty from +dmg but have 100% benefit from crit rating.

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Q u o t e:
Here you forgot that a 3sec cast fireball get a 10% penalty on +dmg.

Also you do keep in mind that crit benefit from MoE thatis true but you must also take instant spells and AoE spells into account all of them have heavy penalty from +dmg but have 100% benefit from crit rating.

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Last point first. Fireball actually gets 105% of +dmg with empowered fireball.
That's 105% for a 3 sec cast while it'd untalented get 100% for 3.5 sec.

And yes, crit benefits instant spells more, but this is for pve dps, should maybe have specified that in the original post. More specific, fireball, and maxing raiding dps. There would have to be equally complicated calcs for other spells, like AM etc. I'll let someone else do that:) There already have been posts like that actually, and since the discussion of max dps often is between arc/fire and full fire, I just used those as examples.. mostly full fire. (both are nice specs, this is not a spec thread:P)

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Q u o t e:
This is where you simply stop reading, as some already stated your making a totaly unfair compare in favor to +dmg.

These talents increase your DPS just as much no matter if it comes from crit rating or +dmg that is irrelevant, thoes talents increase you total DPS. Im also pretty sure you are wrong since there is no logic to why +dmg would be cheaper if it was better in the game.

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+dmg and crit work very much in relation to eachother. Here's a really stupid example, but anyway:) If your spell did 0dmg, crit wouldnt increase dps at all, but +dmg would:)
(damn, i sound like a +dmg fanboy writing that, I'm just trying to theorycraft a bit on dps, and what stats would give tbe most benefit.)
Anyway, the point is more that the firetalents increase your dmg each spell does, which again increases the damage of the crits, meaning it's a bit more advantage for dps than people think.


Here's another thing to think about. Say base spell does 800dmg. With firetalents and 0% crit you'd maybe need +725 spelldmg or something to double your dps.

With +725 critrating (more like 650 cause of itembudget) instead you would NOT have 100% crit, which would also double your dps.

You'd actually get ~35% crit for the same value in critrating as spelldmg. That's 35% extra dps for the same ammount of +crit rating as you'd get +100% increased dps for with +dmg. This would make +dmg 3x as good as +crit if theese numbers were true.

Off course, everyone knows a mage wouldnt doesnt have 0% crit and base spelldmg, but it shows the scaling in the low end of the scale.

Now, critrating scales with your current +dmg, so crit will look better and better the more spelldmg you have already.

But it will take a very very high ammount for critrating to get better than +dmg. Maybe at +2000dmg you'd get more benefit from +1 crit than +1dmg in pure dps? I'm not 100% sure of the numbers, but the number of +dmg you'd need for crit to be better is higher than anyone currently has.


I think blizz is simply carefull with the benefit of +critrating because of scaling issues at later stages tbh, but that's just what I think, I have no idea.
Heck, you can even use this to make blizz change their itemization a bit, to improve spellcrit as a stat for a mage:)
Then again, crits also often procs other stuff as well, MOE, (even trinkets) or similar crit abilities for other classes that also use spellcrit. (paladins being an excellent example)

This would be a good reason for blizz to not make spellcrit too good, if it also gives other stats, especially overpowering paladins maybe? Remember, they have several classes to balance that uses the same ratings, not just mages.

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Q u o t e:
[b]Now here's the first interesting calc that alot of people are forgetting.
People assume 1% more crit will give them 1% more damage. This is wrong. That is assuming you already have 0% crit, which you probably don't.

Assuming you have 30%, which is ok, each +1% to crit will increase the damage on 70% of your spells by 1%.

For full fire that is 70% of 1.1% (with ignite) = 0,77%. Meaning 22.1 critrating will increase your dps by 0,77%.

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My math has a slightly different result

N = chance to crit
X = average fireball damage without crits

With crits it is: L = N*2.1*X for the N fireballs that crit
+ (1-N)*X for the (1-N) fireballs that won't crit
= (N*2.1 + 1 -N)*X = (1.1*N+1)*X

Examples:
if N = 0, L = (1.1*0+1)*X = X
if N = 1, L = (1.1*1+1)*X = 2.1*X

How much more dps is N = n1 compared to N = n2? (n1 > n2)

(1.1*n1+1)*X / (1.1*n2+1)*X = (1.1*n1+1) / (1.1*n2+1)

For n1 = 0.31 and n2 = 0.3 that is (1.1*0.31+1) / (1.1*0.3+1) = 1.341/1.33 = 1,00827

Therefore at 30% crit, 1% crit more is a 0,827% dps increase

Don't flame me, cause I have been wrong before, but I think this is the correct way.

I have recently been crunching numbers aswell when cosing wiat PVP gems to buy.
One adds 12 spell dmg
Another 10 critt rating
and the third 6dmg and 5 critt

Now im a 34/28/0 Scorch critt master build.
My hit rating is lacking i know ^^" but i do pvp alot aswell. And untill i fall behind in DMG in raids i will keep this specc ;)

The 12 spell dmg adds about 5dmg on my scorch spell. (42% coffecient = 5,04)
Because of my tallents a critt gives x2,45 and currently i pack a 41,5% critt chanse on scorch with self buffs only (molten armor + AI).
So that means the dmg i get is 5 + (5 x 2.45 x 0.415) = 10 (a tad more if using 5,04)

Now. the critt gem adds 0,45% critt chanse for me.
And here is where i stumble around abit. on the math. Especially after your post >.<
My scorch does betwen 750 to 950dmg, to make is easier for me lets count on 900 (wich its always above when 5 debuffs are on place)
900*2.45*0.0045 = 9.9 the way i used to count (means they are pretty damn close)
But according to you i should count 900*2.45*0.0045*0.585 = 5,8?
meaning my critt / dmg balance is way off?

Please help me clarify this matter :)

There is something wrong in ur formula. Check my post
First at all, if u want to make a comparison, +13% spell dmg from Firepower and playing fire talents shouldn't be calculated only for Spell dmg formula. The reason is 13% works as percentage, the bonus applies to ur spell dmg, crits, and more hits u get. Same for improved scorch, priest 5% debuff, COE etc.
Secondly Crit chance is filtered by hit chance, the system calculates chance to hit first, then crit, so the real crits u get is Hit chance x Crit chance http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Spell_hit_chance
Thirdly, the formula for improved fire ball coeficient nerf and empowered fireball is not 105%, but 103.5%
(100% + (Y * 3%)) * (100% - (X * 2%)) http://www.wowwiki.com/Fireball.
U can check my formula below
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=288840020&sid=1
In my post I don't consider the Percentage, but just Dmg which a crit, sp, hit adds on 100 fireball hits, and how much they add to each cast.

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Q u o t e:


My math has a slightly different result

N = chance to crit
X = average fireball damage without crits

With crits it is: L = N*2.1*X for the N fireballs that crit
+ (1-N)*X for the (1-N) fireballs that won't crit
= (N*2.1 + 1 -N)*X = (1.1*N+1)*X

Examples:
if N = 0, L = (1.1*0+1)*X = X
if N = 1, L = (1.1*1+1)*X = 2.1*X

How much more dps is N = n1 compared to N = n2? (n1 > n2)

(1.1*n1+1)*X / (1.1*n2+1)*X = (1.1*n1+1) / (1.1*n2+1)

For n1 = 0.31 and n2 = 0.3 that is (1.1*0.31+1) / (1.1*0.3+1) = 1.341/1.33 = 1,00827

Therefore at 30% crit, 1% crit more is a 0,827% dps increase

Don't flame me, cause I have been wrong before, but I think this is the correct way.

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Tbh I trust your math more, simply because it looked more complicated and more thought out:)

Actually, you got me curious, so I did the math using easy examples. (casting 100 spells, 30 of them will crit, how much more dmg would 1 more crit give? 0,827% dmg increase indeed:)
So appreciate the correction:)

I guess I shuold edit my original post, but the point still stands about +dmg being substantial more dps than +crit.

I don't suppose you feel like double checking my +dmg calcs as well?:)

You are forgetting 2 things here.

Crits give mana back, making you able to nuke longer (yes mana can be a problem if you dont have shadow priest on your group).

The Lightning Capacitor = ~+750dmg every 3 crits

My non-complicated way: Crits deal 210% damage. That means that 30% crit increases your damage by (0.70 x 1) + (0,30 x 2,1) = 1,33 which is 33% damage increase. Improving this crit by 1% makes:
(0,69 x 1) + (0,31 x 2,1) = 1,341

1,341 / 1,33 = 1,008 = 0,8% damage increase from 1% crit at 30 to 31% crit with Fire including Ignite.