Given the announced changes to Thunder Clap and it being available in Defensive stance, it was once again time to do some threat research. Initial testing has been performed by Roana aka Cat, Thorium Brotherhood-US http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=9258&page=6 (beyond post 148) & http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80402522&sid=1&pageNo=2#37 and gave an idea of what to expect (Threat factor 2.00 dropped to 1.75 and stance modifiers apply)

Confirmed by several others and at the same time shot down by many, myself and Rhenne, The Venture Co-EU confirmed Cat's findings and removed some obvious doubts.

Following sections that are underlined are outdated, yet kept for reference.

- Thunder Clap is affected by the stance modifier (0,8 Battle; 1,3 Defensive)

- Thunder Clap threat has a 1,75 modifier from damage, meaning damage +75% total threat; assumption is that Improved Thunder Clap can double total Thunder Clap threat as previously, since it doubles damage and makes no notice of threat.
- Replaced: Thunder Clap threat has a 2,25 modifier untalented, and 1,75 when fully talented. This compensates for otherwise outrageous threat differnces on a relatively cheap talent.
Expected formula is:
TC Threat = Damage * (2,25 - ( 0,50 * x / 100 ))
where x is the percentage of additional damage as shown in the talent tree ( 0 - 100 )

- Thunder Clap has no additional static innate threat value

- Multiple targets do not share a single Thunder Clap threat value, all threat to a target is handled individually. Thus Thunder Clap creates four times as much total threat per global cooldown on four targets, compared to single target use. This is the same as before the patch.

Discussion:
Assuming a talented Thunder Clap deals 150-200 damage, depending heavily on the target's armor, the threat without stance modifier (to compare it with other listed values) becomes 262-350 per application per Sunder. Which makes it a very appealing replacement for Sunder Armor (301), especially combined with the multiple targets and superior attackspeed debuff. While talented, it is likely to be taken up in threat cycles.

I emphasize talented; it looks like Improved Thunder Clap is going to be a mandatory talent for any warrior that occasionally tanks, simply because the benefits are substantial and it's so easily obtainable. The talent tree should be a specification your character with increasingly better skills the deeper you go in the tree. It should not offer a Thunder Clap rank 10 on the second tier, and offer a near useless alternative (Unimproved Thunder Clap) to those that don't spend the points. It's an easy choice for people that tank, in fact it's not a choice at all.

I'm suggesting Improved Thunder Clap to be put higher up in the Arms tree, next to Impale, as a buff to the "baseline" Arms tank. It forces Protection to spec extreme and Fury to spec specifically in order to achieve a viable threat tool. Additionally it gives a higher desire to bring dps specced warriors in raids.

If not that, the effect between talented an untalented should become smaller, because the current form is a giveaway.

Bleh, this has become more of a rant than a research project :p Down is the raw data. I hope you all have fun with Improved Thunderclap while it lasts. Update on talent will follow later.

Found some more info that actually makes sense, and info that fits a suggestion as above described.

Normal Thunder Clap has a threat Factor of ~2.25
Improved Thunder Clap 3/3 has threat a Factor of ~1.75

This means that the threat difference between the two is.

75dmg* 2.25 = 169
150dmg * 1.75 = 262

On unsundered regular armor targets. Full Sunder Armor increases damage done by about 20% However, far endgame, armors are higher, so it balances out.

This changes the likely threat formula to:

TC Threat = Damage * (2,25 - ( 0,50 * x / 100 ))
where x is the percentage of additional damage as shown in the talent tree ( 0 - 100 )

Consequently, I have to withdraw some of my earlier conclusions and affiliated suggestions, since the difference is not as high as expected. I will underline the conclusions in the main post so they're still readable though.

Yours truly,
Lavina Darkspark.

===

Raw data test 1

Tested with Thunder Clap Rank 7 with Improved Thunder Clap talent.

3x TC(r7) in Battle 563 damage turnover at 858-872 gives
~865 / 1,1 / 0,8 / 563 = 1,73-1,76 factor, which compares to the factor 1,75 found by Cat.

3x TC(r7) in Defensive 507 damage turnover at 1452-1468 gives
~1460 / 1,1 / 1,495 / 507 = 1,74-1,76 factor, which is the same as above
Conclusion: Stance modifier applies to Thunder Clap

1x TC(r7) in Battle 213 damage, turnover at 329
329 / 1,1 / 0,8 / 213 = 1175 factor
Conclusion: Thunder Clap on a lower armored target gives no shift in factor, which reasons that there's no additional static innate threat value

1x TC(r7) in Battle on two targets 188 damage, turnover at 288-306
~297 / 1,1 / 0,8 / 188 = 1.75-1.76 factor
Conclusion: Thunder Clap threat is not split

On a sidenote: I tried testing with warriors that had no Improved Thunder Clap, however since all had Anger Management, things were messed. I tried substracting through normal threat rules, but I got all kinds of negative threat values. I will update with a normal warrior shortly. I wouldn't be surprised if the nontalented version has a 1 value instead of 1.75 though :\
===

Raw Data test 2

915-944 turnover at 404 dam 2,17 2,25
~930 / 1,3(ranged) / 0,8 / 404 = 2,17-2,25

Double test::
735-780 turnover at 384 dam 2,18 2,30
~750 / 1,1(melee) / 0,8 / 384 = 2,17 - 2,30

FIRST!!!

You Rock! <3

Been busy today as well myself with something similar btw:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=226592657&postId=2280522856&sid=1#1

Neat, thanks alot. One thing thou I didn't really get the sunder -> tc comparison, what is talented thunderclap single target threat wise comperable to let's say on average mob not too heavily armored.

Awesome, thanks a lot! I tried to catch you on Venture Co. for testing, but it seems that I'm too slow again.
Or rather, you're too fast, like always!

Nice work
Roywyn

I quickly and sloppily tested this myself yesterday afternoon and I concur with these results.

Good work, ty for researching.

Can confirm these figures. I'm specced 8/5/48 and I can say, that TC is a must if you want to tank more than 4 mobs. We did Shattered halls with 1 mage and no more CC, but my fear. And those big packs with 2 nonelites and 5 elites were easily controllable, as our dps was able to actualy follow my marks. TC holds warrior threat higher than healers threat and thats all I expected from it. Oh and the 20% speed reduce - 20% damage taken reduced is not bad either;)

Blizzard may have aimed for a 2.5 / 2.25 / 2.0 / 1.75 threat modifier from damage for 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 talent points. Taking into account the improvement in damage the talent points give this would have given a final threat of 2.5 / 3.15 / 3.4 / 3.5 times the base (untalented) TC damage for 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 talent points.

This is a reasonable increase in threat for the talent points. Good enough that every prot warrior will want to invest the points in, but not completely gimping those who don't want to do so.

If they instead implemented a 1.0 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 threat modifier from damage for 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 talent points as Lavina suggests then a hotfix is in order.

Aye, seen it on the jerk forums Athi, nice work

*hug Roywyn*

Gwen, assume Imp. Thunder Clap damage to be 150 on a level 70. That's 150*1.75 = 262.5 threat. This is comparable to the Sunder Armor value of 301.
However, since Thunder Clap damage is increased when opponent's armor decreases, and the specific type of mob has a reasonably high armor, it can be said Thunder Clap can deal up to 200 damage and deal more threat that way (up to 350)

(Hope the damage number is right. Since my server was down for most of the evening, I asked a random warrior what his Thunder Clap did on a level 70 undead near Karazhan. Answer was 75 unspecced.)

I'm hoping you are right Bregonn. It would certainly smoothing up things. I'll see if I can find a suitable warrior to test it with tonight. Don't feel like spending money to respec (yet). *glares at the epic mount in the shop*

Thank you for showing these numbers, it gives a nice idea of the power. It's a great move to keep the healer safe, but it really isn't enough to allow the group to go full out aoe. They did the right job this way imo.

About moving the Imp TC talent higher up in the arms tree ... I would hate to see that happening. It's a great tanking talent that fits in pretty much every build and will allow any specced warrior to tank decently. The talent is right where it belongs :-)

I have to disagree on the imp. thunderclap placement (and threat being to big with the talents), it seems just right to me. 1.75% multiplier for all ranks would be just peachy.

It in itself is not enough to make a non-prot tank viable, you also need defiance.
That's 8 arms + 13 prot = 21points. Which makes a thunderclap-tanking full fury build impossible (it also prevents you from going imp overpower or impale and still get defiance, etc..).
So the talent serves to distinguish arms from fury for tanking, as intended by Blizzard.
(Obviously arms is not resticted in this way from getting cruelty and then defiance).

On the other hand thunderclap is an important threat talent and thus should be accessible to protection warriors also.
Frankly if you think just 8 points in arms (which leaves 53 points for protection), is too much to invest, then you have bigger problems then imp. thunderclap. Do you think a tank warrior should just put 61 points in prot and that's it ?

Conclusion: - to distinguish fury from arms it is necessary to make imp. thunderclap important for tanking. To not make arms have an advantage over protection for 5 man tanking, imp. thunderclap should be relatively easily available to protection warriors.

Raid tanking does not require the tank to have improved thunderclap, and thunderclap threat is too low to replace either devastate/shield slam or revenge. So while an arms warrior's threat cycle might change, a protection one's wouldn't unless he would be tanking groups rather the a raid boss.

There will still be plenty of warriors who will go for iron will for pvp and skip improved thundercalp (for pvp for example). So the placement is fine as the choice is not automatic, it only seems so if you're tank-focused.

I also find it funny people think it's threat is the important thing, and that adding it to defensive stance suddenly changed it from "mediocre" to "must-have", when in a raid situation the threat is insgnificant, while the debuff is a huge factor if you don't have a thunderfury. 20% straight white damage reduction and you guys are thinking about it's threat o.0.

Anyway, thanks for getting us the numbers Lavina :).

*bump* Appreciate the feedback

Superb info as always. I was for a fact, searching for this exact info.

It appears to be a an immense buff, wich I'm guessing is caused by the TBC 5 man heroic mode dungeons, and how well it previously was handled by you-know-who. I understand your points about how you feel it should be changed, but considering what the alternatives for build with more than 8 points into Arms would be, I'm guessing the developers wishes that every single warrior should be able to handle the previously described situation, with a minimal change in their builds. They definitely threw a cookie. :-P

Informative and always, deserving a bump. :)

I'm sorry i couldn't help you out more when you were testing as i've had improved thunderclap and anger management since TBC started.

Thanks for the effort, my own "testing" mostly meant: "look i can MS every crit, that's cool" :)

No worries Xynthia. Yhr had the right spec, thanks Yhr!

Found some more info that actually makes sense, and info that fits a suggestion as above described.

Normal Thunder Clap has a threat Factor of ~2.25
Improved Thunder Clap 3/3 has threat a Factor of ~1.75

This means that the threat difference between the two is.

75dmg* 2.25 = 169
150dmg * 1.75 = 262

On unsundered regular armor targets. Full Sunder Armor increases damage done by about 20% However, far endgame, armors are higher, so it balances out.

This changes the likely threat formula to:

TC Threat = Damage * (2,25 - ( 0,50 * x / 100 ))
where x is the percentage of additional damage as shown in the talent tree ( 0 - 100 )

Consequently, I have to withdraw some of my earlier conclusions and affiliated suggestions, since the difference is not as high as expected. I will underline the conclusions in the main post so they're still readable though.

===

Raw Data

915-944 turnover at 404 dam 2,17 2,25
~930 / 1,3(ranged) / 0,8 / 404 = 2,17-2,25

Double test::
735-780 turnover at 384 dam 2,18 2,30
~750 / 1,1(melee) / 0,8 / 384 = 2,17 - 2,30

Good research.

But I do disagree you with moving it down in the arms tree. That would just gimp us full protection warriors.

Great job Lavina, thx for the good work (and also those who helped you).

Good to see that there's a reasonable increase in threat per talent point, but not too much. TC's position also ensures that all DPS warriors have some means to improve their tanking through talents which is good.

It doesn't suprise me that the threat factor was lowered (from 2.5 prepatch to 1.75-2.25 now). Even in Battle Stance threat was very good, had it not been lowered now then it certainly would have been nerfed in the future.

I'm very happy with TC as it is now. It makes tanking easier and more fun. Now only if those mages wouldn't let their sheeps wander into my TC area...

Ah only just got my eyes on this, once again my attempts to neatly summarize the Threat of 1 Thunder Clap vs. a 0 Armour target (in the Sticky) are incorrect because I was unaware that the 1.75 Threat modifier applied only when TC was Talented.

Curse my metal body, I was too slow.