World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Protection Itemisation Feedback

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

0. Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:43:28 PST

Blizzard representatives say that they are listening to and interested in getting feedback from players. I still hope that is true. Both Ommra and Crezax have asked direct questions on this forum regarding paladin tanking. So here is my little compilation of what protection paladins (and others) have had to say about survivability and gear.

Executive Summary

Paladins have the potential to become viable maintanks in raids alongside the other tanking classes. However, player feedback shows that the itemisation (and possibly talents) for protection paladins needs to be improved for the paladin to be a viable maintank in raids. Protection paladins require gear which provides more damage mitigation and more health points ("HP"), while still providing spell damage for threat generation.

Currently, protection paladins simply cannot compete alongside other tanking classes since they take too much damage and do not have enough health to withstand hard hitting mobs and bosses. Protection Paladins do not require more intellect or mana per 5 seconds since Spiritual Attunement fulfils that need.

Stats which protection paladins are asking for

Stats which protection paladins are not asking for

Please, item developers, listen to us.

_____________________________
EDIT: Small change due to input from other players.

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

1. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:44:01 PST

Who the heck does this Youngblood character think he is?

I have played World of Warcraft as a paladin since the day the game went gold in Europe. When I started playing, the paladin class description contained the infamous line "they are tanks overall". I've tanked many 5-man instances in TBC and Karazhan up to the Curator. After standing at the back of the raid cleansing and healing in MC, BWL, AQ and Naxxramas for 2 years, I was delighted to finally start tanking in TBC. It was my intended role all along, and although healing can be rewarding, this was a new and refreshing experience.

Several Blizzard representatives have expressed that the paladin role is a healing and tanking hybrid. I fully expect that to mean that we should be equal, not superior and not inferior, to the other tanking classes in the game. (If not, then they should bloody well tell us all, and I can stop ranting...)

I claim that the views I am about to express are representative of the views of the vast majority of protection specced paladins. It's a bold statement, I know, but I think my arguments will hold water. Please observe that this is said in a pure PvE tanking context, and not meant to be the truth in regards to solo grinding or PvP.

Lastly, no this is not an attack on warriors (or druids). Warriors are being buffed, which is exactly what the warriors needed. I'm happy for you guys. This is about paladins, and try to remember that if more paladins can tank it will give more freedom to warriors who want to go arms/fury instead of tanking.

Protection Itemisation Feedback

From my experience, and from the information gathered by listening to more experienced paladin players, I think its safe to say that paladin tanking faces a number of challenges. While our threat generation seems to work out fine, especially in undead-rich environments like Karazhan, we won't be able to main tank in raids and the like. Why? Because even though we can hold aggro, we take too much damage. Either we die too fast from sudden damage spikes, or the healers run out of mana while healing us.

I have excellent people healing me while I tank (among others a disc/holy specced priest with more than +1,500 healing). When compared to the protection warrior that tanks Karazhan with me all healers have commented on the fact that I take a lot more damage, and I have a lot less HP, despite roughly similar gear. I hold aggro well, and abilities like Righteous Defense and Blessing of Protection are working wonders when tanking so threat management is not really an issue. Nor is mana, since I never run out of mana while tanking, simply because Spiritual Attunement gives me back more mana than I can spend.

Normal 5 man instances are fine. But when it comes to Karazhan and Heroic instance tanking all is not well and good. In several fights I have been two- or three-shotted by bosses, while the protection specced warrior is happily tanking away next to me. At level 70, he has over 1,000 base HP more than me, and the gear he can pick up is decidedly more suited to his role in the raid. The stats he needs are all available om the same pieces of equipment. Whereas the paladin tanking gear seems to be schizophrenic and trying to give stats for all three talent trees. Now people are telling me that the paladin Tier 4 dungeon sets are being tweaked on the PTR:s, with stamina being removed and MP5 added. This is completely contrary to the feedbank provided by the paladin community.

INT AND MP5 IS NOT WHAT PROTECTION PALADINS ARE ASKING FOR, NOR WHAT PROTECTION PALADINS NEED.

While a protection paladin tanks, he/she will not be able to heal for any significant amount of healing. (I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is.) If healing is required, a good protection paladin will simply put on a healing set with MP5 and +healing. But then he won't be tanking. A deep-protection specced paladin is a lousy healer, so its not as if this will work very well regardless. Please, dear item developers, do not try to make the protection paladin gear into a protection/holy gear set.

Protection paladins need more stamina, more defense, and more spell damage (more spell damage is needed to cope with threat generation increase from DPS classes). To be honest, it may be that pure +block and +stamina is actually better than +defense, since a lot of the paladin threat generation is based on the paladin actually getting hit. If a blow is dodged or parried, some of the paladins threat generation will be lost since holy damage is returned back to the mob when a blow lands.

Although both protection paladins and protection warriors benefit from strength when blocking blows, strength is even less valuable for paladins than it is for warriors. Warriors receive extra attack power from strength and thus they do more normal damage, thus generating a little extra threat that way (but strenght is not all that important for protection warriors either). Paladin threat on the other hand is gained through doing Holy damage, which is not reliant on attack power at all, but spell damage. So instead of strength, give us block value and block rating!

Thus I am asking the item developers to take a new look at the protection paladin items and, after listening to the community, tweak them so that the survivability of the protection paladins is made equal to that of the protection warrior. Together with this, protection paladins need enough spell damage to generate enough threat. If our gear is not adjusted, then our talents will need to be. Perhaps a mix between the two would be the best (Weapon Expertise?), but gear goes a long way.

Support For My Claims

Well, I'm sure that you won't just take my word for all this. But I am not alone in my views, far from it. Below I have quoted a number of other players who, in my view, have expressed thoughts, arguments and ideas which support my contention that protection paladins need a better itemisation. Some of these quotes are direct responses to questions asked by Crezax and Ommra about how paladin tanking is working out.

Full Disclosure

Naturally, I have also seen posts from people who claim that the protection itemisation is sufficient. I have not included such posts below, but I claim that they are few and far between. I challenge anyone to compile a longer and more well supported collection of quotes from people who hold the view that protection paladin itemisation is fine. I'm sure I can scrounge up some more posts in support of my view too.

The quotes below have sometimes been shortened or abbreviated to help the reader. They are not all directly discussing paladin gear, however they all show a need for the changes I have proposed above. Any emphasis has been added by me. Yes, I have also quoted myself on occasion.

If anyone feels that I have quoted them out of context, or who feel that they do not agree with my contention and therefore want a quote removed, please let me know and I will remove it.
_____________________________
EDIT: Small changes due to input from other players (regarding resilience and strength)

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

2. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:44:33 PST

Legend

<Player Name> on <Server name>
Source: <URL> <quote>

Quotes

Shahdi on US Executus
Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79823180&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
Now I would have expected paladin tank raid gear to fall into the same category. In other words the gear would be almost completely focused on mitigation, with just a tiny bit of int/spell dmg/mp5. Instead our tank gear lacks focus and wastes points on too much spell damage, mp5, and a large amount of Intellect.

Kaylina on Wildhammer
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205790813&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
As we progress further, bosses will generally hit harder. Meaning a protadin's itemisation would generally require as much block, parry, defence and stamina as a warrior (assuming the paladin was in an MT role) - while also having to budget for spell damage. Regardless of wether such itemisation is available atm, non-set wise, as tier4/5 tankadin sets are rubbish, what is a paladins limit?

Rhiannon on Anetheron
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=206030814&sid=1#3

Q u o t e:
I the further content the paladin will be same kind of tank than pre BC ...a trashmob tank ...because of non optimal tanking gear for a paladin .... sweet dreams of being an accepted mt ...you can forget them.

Go the the back of the raid and heal.

Thodius on Scarshield Legion
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=206030814&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
I am highly curious how blizzard see us tanking anything in TBC raids.

Main tanking? Why, if we are inferior to warriors in every aspect? Buff us then, give us mitigation benefits from stats like intellect and dmg/healing or make us more viable in warrior tanking gear (threat-wise and mitigation wise).

Off tanking? Who would need to spec prot for it? Some gear will do just fine. If we are not supposed to tank in every encounter, then there is no reason to drag prot pally through everything. It's better to spec for healing or even dps/support and change gear when needed to offtank some trash nothing.

And "prot" itemization sux to be honest... why those items have no block but only defence? Our offtanking and mass-tanking is about blocking and dealing threat that way, not by dodge or parry or whatever! Some def of course, but not ONLY it!

Mitsune on Darksorrow
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
I write this addressing the community representatives and any other blizzard official reading the forums, in a desperate attempt to get ANY word on the current state of prot itemization. Please hear me out.

Protection paladins, as has been said time and again, need but three stats to tank in a raid. Stamina, Defence (with derived stats, parry/block/dodge rating) and Spell Damage. Warriors need Stamina, Defence and Strength. Shield block value is moderately useful for us both from a raiding perspective, with extra use for AoE tanking as a paladin, and for threat generation as a warrior.

This is not being represented in gear, and the latest changes, however small, to the Tier 4 paladin items are indicative of one of three truths. (Moreso than just the changes, the general layout of T4 and T5 "Protection" items aren't ideally set up for a raid tanking job.)

A) Blizzard disagrees with the Paladin community in that they think mp5 and int are useful paladin raid tanking stats.

B) Blizzard intends that the Paladin tier armor sets are best used in situations where these stats are needed in the eyes of the Paladin community.

C) Blizzard found that Paladin tanking was too close to/superior to/not inferior enough to warrior tanking and decided to resolve this issue through the tiered armor sets.

I can accept any one of these truths, I just want to know which it is. I've not heard a single word from any Blizzard official on anything related to their views in prot paladin gear. This is getting out of hand, and the silence is horrid.

Please. If a CM reads this - and I hope me addressing you at the end of my post will not ruin the chances of a reply akin to saying "BLUE PLZ" in the topic - just say that you don't know. Say you'll look into it. Say you do know - I don't care, just please, help us figure this one out. We prot paladins are certainly a small group, smaller than the shadow priests who in the end got their mind flay scaling question answered thanks to your investigations, but we deserve a straight up answer.

Ezarioth on Ravencrest
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#1

Q u o t e:
I can only agree. Our sets are the only thing that has possibility to hinder paladin tanking. At the moment situation isn't too bad since there's lots of random tanking gear around in Karazhan, but unless t5 and following set are looked at and retuned to have only high amounts of stamina, avoidance stats and moderate spell power we will undoubtedly fall far behind warriors.

Please, just stamina, avoidance and spell power, no int, no mp/5.

Thank you

Meissa on Zenedar
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#2

Q u o t e:
Stamina, Defence and spelldamage Blizzard. That's what works, you don't put spirit onto warrior tank gear so don't put stuff Paladin tanks don't need onto ours thanks.

Youngblood on Dunemaul
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#3

Q u o t e:
Exactly. R'amen.

And it's been repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So dear item developers. Time to prove that Blizzard listens.

Quantumdelta on Outland
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#11

Q u o t e:
Re: A desperate plea - hear us. Prot itemiza
I so rarely do this, but God Damn Signed.
This was on my todo list, so you beat me to it, excellent post.

Ganches on Frostwhisper
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#12

Q u o t e:
I fully agree.

I've tanked a few times and i loved it , problem is i know i will never be able to MT anything.
Our warriors beat the #@#@ out of me , even though they have about same 'quality' in gear really(as in sort of same lvl/same instances).

I can usually aggro better , especially on big groups , but my mitigation is just awful compared to them , which is what will matter when you tank the bosses.

Barozda on Neptulon
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#13

Q u o t e:
I also think a Paladin's Block Value should be determined by our Intelligence instead of Strength, that would improve our mitigation a bit since we got 0 Strength on our tanking armors.

Hrt on Wildhammer
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=205610592&sid=1#15

Q u o t e:
Yes and yes. Couldn't possibly agree more.

When looking at T4, i'm just not interested in it as tanking gear. just itemisation is a knightmare for me for tanking, which is all i do. sort it out pls :)

Rizso on The Venture Co
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1&pageNo=3#45

Q u o t e:
This changes makes me sick. WTF whats up with nerfing the tanking gear?? Sigh. Remove the useless mp5 for defence and stamina. Mana per 5 is so overrated for tanking.

Guess that paladin only tanking gear is not for tanking...

Quantumdelta on Outland
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1&pageNo=2#39

Q u o t e:
Ah they made the already useless set, more useless.
Good on them.
No difference to me since I was leaning towards taking retri's version anyway, well made up now, lol.

Cowmoo on Haomarush
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1&pageNo=2#25

Q u o t e:
These changes shows why I abandoned my dreams to tank seriously (with high dense values as warriors, not being a gimped warrior) .. Paladins are ready to tank, but Blizz itemsation team isn't.

Mitsune on Darksorrow
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1#15

Q u o t e:
I am, as a prot paladin, severely disappointed in Blizzard's understanding of paladins as raid tanks.

Clangeddin on Earthen Ring
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1#10

Q u o t e:
I suppose they did those changes to make the crystalforge set an actual upgrade from justicar...

so, here's the reasoning of blizz:

DEV 1: OMG they say pala tier tank 4 is betta than tier 5 omgomgomg what do we do?
DEV 2: KK lets nerf tier 4 so that tier 5 will look better!
DEV 1: OMG you genius!1!one

Ganches on Frostwhisper
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1#9

Q u o t e:
Re: "Improved" Justicar Armor stats
They're making the sets more %%%#e then they already are? what the..?

Carighan on Emerald Dream
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1#4

Q u o t e:
Re: "Improved" Justicar Armor stats
Oh nice, so the tank-armor is only useful for healing now. Hooray.

Hey, if anyone of your blue CMs reads this, can you politely (I am not good at this) ask the developers to get their heads out of their behinds and for a change play the game they're designing here?

Backup on Shadowsong
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1#3

Q u o t e:
Re: "Improved" Justicar Armor stats
*#*!ing...idiots.......

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

3. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:45:06 PST

Brocknack on Darksorrow
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=202520623&sid=1#1

Q u o t e:
removing stamina adding mana/5? what?

I was going to get the tank set but ill maby change my mind.

Ganches on Frostwhisper
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=203490348&sid=1#2

Q u o t e:
I think paladins are great tanks , i have tested it ;) However most gear we get (including the high tiers 4/5) are just inferior to warrior gear in every way when it comes to absorbing damage.

Give me some proper gear and i'll show you real tanking! >_>

Stygg on Stormrage
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=203490348&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
Its easily spotted in our two protection trees, we get less stamina, less damage taken, and worse itemization on our tank gear.

I dont see that with paladins with our lesser HP pool & damage mitigation should be weaker just because we're paladins? Druids got that covered, but instead are much more suspectible to crushing blows. (Paladins are too, until gear catch up so that holy shield makes our avoidance 100%, i.e it will either parry, block or dodge)

A protection paladin is as gimped as a protection warrior in pvp.

Ezarioth on Ravencrest
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=193669369&sid=1#7

Q u o t e:
Do you think Paladins have alot of disadvantages as Main Tank in Heroics compared to Warriors?

Not a lot, but we certainly lack some mitigation and, more importantly, health compared to them and our greatest "oh ##*#" button, bubble+taunt is more situational, although more powerfull, than Last Stand or Shield Wall.

Dialos on Mazrigos
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=193669369&sid=1#6

Q u o t e:
What paladin tanking gear?:S most of the pieces are a failure of design. From supposedly paladin pieces i only have tier4 shoulders and hands and continuum blade as a weapon with 40 spell dmg enchant. My primal goal till recently was pushing crushing blows off the combat table in which i succeded (0% to get a crushing blow against a mob level 73 while holy shield is active). I have no problem holding threat with that 'low' spell dmg in every case except if i'm tired and lazy and i dont press my buttons.

Seegon on Defias Brotherhood
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=193669369&sid=1#4

Q u o t e:
oh and pala tanking gear? it suck's, its for a holy \ prot pvp build, not a tanking pve build. So much useless stats, your way better off with "neutral" tanking gear, by that I don't mean warrior tanking gear, but the part's designed for both, that includes a high ammount of sta def ++

+ spelldamage, too high int, _mana\5_ , if not useless, its not far from the truth.
A one hander (suggest revered with Cavern of time's, 30 sta and 121 spell damage) with a spell damage enchant on, combined with +20 spell damage enchant on your glove's is all the "threat" you need, Damage reducing and a high health bar is way more important :) hell when I look at tier 4 and 5, and see that I will use what, 2 piece of em, and keep my blue's over those make's me cry :/

if you put a paladin ungrouped, against a warrior ungrouped, the paladin does actually take less damage, than the warrior.

Defence stance is 10% reducion, note that this is after the armor reducion, so:
easy number's to play with, a 10k hit, the warrior got 50% damage reducion from his armor value
Thats a 5k hit.
With Defence stance he will take 500 less damage (4500). not 1000 less damage.

Okey paladin got 6% from righteous fury. Notice that this is like Defence stance, applyed after the armor reducion.
But, we got devote aura, that (at my 5\5 and armor rating) reduces the damage taken by roughly 2.3% (or so)
So since its armor, that is added before righteousness fury, to fit that number into the righteous fury, you have to multi it by 2 -> 2.3 x 2 = 4.6% or so
That makes our devote aura + righteous fury combo (our Defence stance)reduce damage taken by 10.6% (Pschy)

Not sure if our 10% reducion against spells combined with 70 additional resistance make's up for the 16% warrior's got though.

"sad" fact is, that our buff's will most likely be applyed to the warrior aswell, in an instance, making em the better choice :)

Besides, they get a wee bit more hitpoints each stamina, so meh.

Tamarind on Khadgar
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=193669369&sid=1#1

Q u o t e:
As i said, i don't have any experiance in the heroics, but the only disadvantage i can actually see is the fact that warriors have slightly more mitigation and a fair bit more base hp, however considering the amount of threat we do i'd guess we make up for that.

Danniler on Moonglade
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=194199436&sid=1#8

Q u o t e:
now... the gear.
Here lies the problem. The tanking paladin gear has allocation of int and mp5s. Which are not nearly as useful for MT as sta, block chance, etc. It also should have +spell dmg to allow for better threat generation. Thus it has generally lower "pure" tanking stats than warrior's gear.

In conclusion: at current state of wow paladin has better threat generation than equally equipped warrior, but slightly worse mitigation/health pool.

Danniler on Moonglade
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=194199436&sid=1#1

Q u o t e:
It's not worth levelling paladin. Don't waste your time.

Just for clarity: paladins are capable of being MT. It is much more difficult than for warriors or druids though. First of all it's people's retardness. "Heal you nooob!", etc. Second, slightly worse mitigation and gear dependence. Third, paladin threat generation is likely to be nerfed soon, because it surpasses warrior's.

Ghorthor on Tirion
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184248706&sid=1&pageNo=4#73

Q u o t e:
Protection is a valid tree now, but paladin tanking lacks gear.

Terrahero on Boulderfist
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184248706&sid=1&pageNo=4#70

Q u o t e:
When it comes to tanking, the only thing we excell at is AoE mass-aggro gain. And warriors new buff lets them get pretty close to that. Appart from this, even after the nerfs to druids we'll still have the lowest dmg migitation on single targets, so guess who will end up MT the boss and who will end up just tanking the trash?

Rudegirl on Ravencrest
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184248706&sid=1&pageNo=4#60

Q u o t e:
Protection: I have 10k HP unbuffed, 513 def, 12,5k armor and 285+dmg in my tanking gear. I were superior for normal 5-mans where you could survive multi-mob-tanking, but as soon as you go heroic and CC everything but 1 mob: Tankadins are useless.

Sugarpuff on Talnivarr
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184248706&sid=1&pageNo=2#35

Q u o t e:
Protection, doesnt do good at migtate dmg as other tanks but has superior treath generation... so I heard atlest from paladins maintanking karazhan!

Emilia on Magtheridon
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=11#208

Q u o t e:
MP/5 is a very good stat if your holy but it is useless for a prot Paladin.

Loras on Azjol-Nerub
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=9#176

Q u o t e:
mp5 is awesome

However, I would like some more/decent tanking gear That @*@% is seriously lacking.

Lucidor on Bronzebeard
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=8#143

Q u o t e:
As a tankadin I do not need the damn mp5 on my gear cause of it eating points that can get spent in stamina.

Palladia on Ragnaros
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=8#141

Q u o t e:
You do understand that when you whine about endgame tanking gear you whine because you want it to be on par with other classes for _ENDGAME_ instances right?

That's the problem, not being able to tank Shattered Halls with Justicar, who the hell cares about that? Justicar is an endgame set and it should have tanking stats for endgame instances, or, let's say it again ZERO mp5s, because you don't get anything out of it when MT/OT-ing in endgame instances even if you spam Full Rank Consecration.

mp5s is USELESS, TOTALLY USELESS when endgame tanking.

Grunduk on Earthen Ring
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=7#136

Q u o t e:
I want MP5 on my tanking sets, but not as much as I do now, I'd gladly trade some of it off for +stam/block. A moderate amount is needed but there are times when I look at my gear and think "Those points could really be spent better elsewhere"

Mogin on Vek'nilash
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=7#130

Q u o t e:
well the reason why mp5 is bad for protection paladin is that it increses the stamina difference with druids and warrior and since we already have the least stamina of them it makes paladin tank less attractive for tanking because they will have a bigger risk of being burst down where both warrior and druid would survive.

Veroni on Ravencrest
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=7#124

Q u o t e:
no mp5 won't help a tanking paladin since you always have joW and well, if you let other people take aggro form you, you use the taunt. ofc there is a small possibility that you pulled 50 manadraining mobs and in that case you will die, even with a warrior.

now.. MP5 is useless for a prot paladin, stamina or spelldamage would be of much better use

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

5. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:45:42 PST

Palladia on Ragnaros
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=6#107

Q u o t e:
It's fun that people that haven't ever tanked in raid instances jump in conclusions.

Even on the trashmobs of Karazhan, myself, I don't lose any mana at all when tanking. My gear is full "warrior" tank gear, I prefer to call it REAL tanking gear, and some has damage and healing.

I can even spam Consecration (Top Rank).

Azriul on Laughing Skull
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=6#100

Q u o t e:
Prot Paladins.

[MP5 is] Tottally worthless, since prot pallys should be tanking, and thus, gaining mana from SA.

Meissa on Zenedar
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=5#93

Q u o t e:
For prot and ret paladins, mp/5 is nothing more than a worthless ability designed to lower our usefulness. Argue this point with me please, nobody has up till now.

Veroni on Ravencrest
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=5#87

Q u o t e:
mp5 is useless for prot palas. we gain so much mana for being healed anyway

Sabina on Haomarush
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=4#77

Q u o t e:
The further down you go in dungeon difficulty the more useful it gets. As I've understood it (no personal experience tanking raiding instances, only a few times in 5 man), the better gear you have, and easier the instance is, the less damage you take, and the less you will regain from SA. No doubt I'd take stamina over mp5 when tanking, so don't get me wrong. But since he's discussing how useless mp5 is, I'm merely talking about just that, the usefullness of the mp5. Would sta be more useful? In my limited oppinion I'm certain of it. Is the mp5 useless? How useful is the mp5? That is my question, that is what I asked.

Psi on Argent Dawn
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1&pageNo=4#72

Q u o t e:
Huh? Mp/5 is a waste on tank gear, especially in the higher dungeons where you will be hit more and thus regenerate more from spiritual attunement. I tanked most of the simple 5 mans now, with 0 mp/5 - and that's really where you'd expect to get the most use out of it.

Meissa on Zenedar
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1#7

Q u o t e:
Ret and prot paladins will happily take stamina, crit (spell crit for prot) and spelldamage. What we don't want is crappy mp/5 overcosting our gear. And it's all over the place, we can hardly get gear without mp/5 making it less good than it should.

Meissa on Zenedar
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1#4

Q u o t e:
Blizzard use mp/5 as a means to nerf paladin gear. You can argue that it's useful for pve healers but it's absolutely pathetic for anyone else

Gauwin on Grim Batol
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=184678642&sid=1#1

Q u o t e:
Prot palas dont need mp5.

Youngblood on Dunemaul
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=191159114&sid=1#2

Q u o t e:
The major issues for paladin tanks at the moment are that we do not have enough HP, mitigation and ability to withstand spike damage. Threat generation is fine, and imho balanced versus warriors. I have no idea how it will compare with the new warrior and druid rage generation though.

EDIT: Prot specced paladins are also very weak against caster classes at the moment. We will be even weaker if the Avenging Wrath/Forebearance changes take place, since many classes can remove that buff, but the debuff will reduce our damage and the shared cooldown will prevent us from using Divine Shield for at least 3 minutes.

Nelthrak on Argent Dawn
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=191189118&sid=1#5

Q u o t e:
Sure there are things to improve but as of now I'm only hoping for higher base hp.
As said warriors get better defences and more hp but what get's me even more sad is seing mages with more hp than me.

Jagganath on Anachronos
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=191189118&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
Compare us to warriors who get baseline :

Shield block, defensive stance, shield wall, retalliation (on shared cooldown with shieldwall), demo shout, thunderclap, disarm, plate, parry, dodge, block, spell reflect, intimidating shout, revenge, shield bash, pummel, intervene, fear breaker on low cooldown.

They get more tools to mitigate damage along with higher base hp. Does this make sense to anyone?

Just seems to me that a class thats been named as the only one designed as defensive should have way more defensive tools than we have.

Talen on Vek'nilash
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=185998841&sid=1&pageNo=2#22

Q u o t e:
Tanking has several aspects to it....and at the minute, Palaidns lose out on mitigation. Lower mitigation means more damage taken. More damage taken means more helaing needed. Lower HP means greater risk of beign one-shotted. Less mitigation, less HP means more healing needed. More healign needed means more stressed healers. More stressed healers means everyone prefers the warrior.

Popsikle on Vek'nilash
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=185998841&sid=1&pageNo=2#21

Q u o t e:
sadly our migitation scales worse than warriors, f.e we get less block,parry,dodge from +def than warriors =(

Palladia on Ragnaros
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=185998841&sid=1&pageNo=2#20

Q u o t e:
In my opinion the mitigation is okay as well, what we really lack mostly is itemisation. Our base HP sure needs a buff though to say the least.

Popsikle on Vek'nilash
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=185998841&sid=1#19

Q u o t e:
Threat is what paladin has, hp and migitation is what paladin lacks and good prot war generates enough single target threat.

Tamarind on Khadgar
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=185998841&sid=1#5

Q u o t e:
the fact that we can take crushing blows, have less base hp and take around 5% more dmg than warrior WHATEVER WE DO makes me think that it'll eventually go back to being warriors as the only viable tanks. Woot.

Intrepid on Frostmane
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=185998841&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
Why are we not considered a viable tank in raids i asked myself. What does a warrior do better than a paladin?

Warriors can Shield Wall, Shield Block(and avoid all crushing, paladins cant with holy shield alone), Last Stand, Sunder Armor(increases physical dps) and Shield Bash. And in the next patch then get aoe threat(Thunder Clap in def stance) and it gives an awesome debuff that reduces dmg done by the affected targets by 20%.

Warriors also have 1k more base health. Warriors gain more stamina and avoidance from gear.

Edgarstrong on The Venture Co
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=186358737&sid=1#8

Q u o t e:
I am more concerned with tanking in raids tbh as well as Heroic instances.
Tanking in normal 5 men instances doesn't seem to be a problem but once we hit lvl 70 the gap between warrior and paladin widens more and more.
Warriors have more base stamina and they also get more stamina and avoidance stats from gear because they don't have to spend stat points on int,mp/5 and spell damage. Something should be changed drastically about protection paladins. Either we should get a talent increasing our stamina as well as our base stamina should be equal to warriors or we should get a certain ammount of dodge/parry/block from every point of intellect we have or something that way.
As of now we have alot of disadvantages compared to warriors i.e. less stamina,less mitigation-and basically no advantages. Well there is an opinion that paladins have an advantage-namely better scaling threat but a good protection warrior will never have any aggro problems on single target whatsoever so this is hardly an advantage.

Intrepid on Frostmane
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=186358737&sid=1#4

Q u o t e:
Paladins does also take more damage since our gear lacks the avoidance that the warrior gear has. Paladins also have a 6% reduction "Defence stance" while warriors get 10%. Warriors also have 1k more base health and gain more stamina from gear. However warriors generate a little less threat.

Warriors also have Shield Wall, Last Stand, Thunder Clap(in next patch), Sunder armor, Shield Bash and probably some more things that paladins lack.

So my question is: Why would you ever allow a paladin tank when you have a warrior that can do it so much better?

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

6. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:46:22 PST

Safir on Emerald Dream
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=182838464&sid=1&pageNo=4#65

Q u o t e:
Ardent Defender unfortunately is something which no tank would ask for. As a tank, if you're not at full HP, a boss has means of one-shotting you. With our smallest HP pools among tanks, the talent is in effect, much worse than say, it is for a druid. We're talking about 12000 hits from enraged Gruul. If you're at 19%, you're dead. As much as Karazhan is a raid environment, my Arms/Fury PvP spec friend MT's bosses so it obviously isn't that much of a challenge in tank capability.

It's a grand issue but we can see that it's not just that, I found that out from a recent thread here (or in US forums, can't remember) that we cannot drive crushing blows off the table whereas even a warrior with zero points in their Protection tree can. Maybe, maybe with Redoubt proc but what good is a proc when you need solid guarantee? So we get crushings and also have the lowest HP with lowest damage mitigation. Eh, that's already enough to not let a paladin tank the really serious encounters.

Daine on Defias Brotherhood
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=182838464&sid=1&pageNo=2#38

Q u o t e:
Well, I'll agree that paladin tanking is the suck right now. Nothing wrong with aggro generation, but with the currently screwed content which insists on two-shots, our HP just doesn't cut it. To have 104 more stamina than a warrior and yet 30 less HP is a joke. Until our hitpoints are buffed, it's all about the healbotting in any serious raid environment, and that's the sad truth.

Jagganath on Anachronos
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=182838464&sid=1&pageNo=2#35

Q u o t e:
The thing is that mobs in tbc tends to hit so hard that nothing besides a prot/feral tank can actually soak the damage from them, what we have is divine shield and using that tends to mean that a clothie or 3 gets whiped out.

Varlant on Twisting Nether
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=182838464&sid=1&pageNo=2#33

Q u o t e:
The only real issue with pally tanking is that we have less damage mitigation than warriors, and less hit points and armour than druids.

Safir on Emerald Dream
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=182838464&sid=1#14

Q u o t e:
But I'm afraid that currently a paladin wouldn't be able to tank Maulgar or Gruul efficiently. We just lack the necessary combination I described before. Aggro holding, maybe but mitigation or HP pool isn't enough.

Safir on Emerald Dream
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=182838464&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
Tanking? According to what we have at hand, -items, talents, class spells/abilities, reports of individuals and news about the latest progress of guilds- paladin tanking is currently the worst of the three tanking classes. This is with speccing into deep Prot and sacrificing any potential of decent healing or damage. And it's clearly not possible to be even qualified as a tank unless you make the sacrifice. This trend has no visible signs of changing as we're not informed of any changes that affects us or other tanks yet.

Ezarioth on Ravencrest
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=181288240&sid=1#4

Q u o t e:
Tanking set is not great for tanking, at least if we talk about tanking in raids. It has far too many itempoints wasted to +int and mp/5 which both are completely useless stats in raid environment and even heroic 5 mans. Because of that random "warrior" blues and epics outperform t4 and even t5: those sets just don't have enough stm and avoidance to make you respectable tank.

Vaeldar on Twisting Nether
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=173227416&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
So I found myself surfing on wowhead, drooling over the phat loots others already have, and since I'm a wannabe endgame PVE tank, I'm kinda disappointed with the Dungeon3 set, the so-called Righteous Armor. I'm fully aware of the fact, that I generate threat with holy damage (I'm a genius I think), and need to maintain mana so manaregen is a nice stat for me, but come on, I can't go in a raid instance, pounding my chest, wanting to tank bosses with 10-11k health (with enchants, gems, calculated with wearing Timewarden Leggings and 4 Righteous armor pieces) unbuffed, can I? I think this set gives too much int/manaregen, and lacks stamina on the other hand. Yeah yeah I know it's only a 5-piece set, there are other slots, but still

Almathea on Ravenholdt
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=166196852&sid=1#6

Q u o t e:
As for gear yes, it seems random Warrior gear will do better for endgame tanking as it isn't polluted with Intellect and mp5 that's not necessary in those situations but I wouldn't mind Righteous or T4 for overall gameplay including grinding etc. Too bad the endgame sets are well adapted to the, eh, endgame though.

Harkon on Deathwing
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=166196852&sid=1#3

Q u o t e:
the problem with that setup is not the avoidance, its the stamina on our tier 5 which frankly gets outshined by lvl 70 blues. The only advantage tier5 has in these situations is more armor, and you can get more spell damage (which 300 is plenty in a raid situation when your mana pool doesnt matter).

Scruff on Chromaggus
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=166076923&sid=1#18

Q u o t e:
Problems with been a prot pally:

Silencing bosses are a no no, and yes theres one in karazan.

Lack of Hp, out of all 3 tanking classes we will have the least hp by 1.5 to 2k

Gear, theres a lack of it at high end, im still stuck in dungeon set blues >.>

Aeronwen on Vek'nilash
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=6#103

Q u o t e:
Crezax are you looking for feedback? Have you been told to ask these questions? if you are then follow the following things onto your peers:

1) MP/5 for Tanking is useless, replace it with Stamina or something.
2) Druids are too good, end of, they put us in a Shadow and can fufill ALL other roles better in one spec. (If theyre Feral and we are Prot)

3) Devine Shield is clearly holding us back, make it a Talent or something that does not lower threat in the Protection tree (cmon Shield Wall is PRACTICALLY "Invunrable" let us have one VIABLE "Oh %!#@" Tanking ability.

4) HP Pool Needs and increase, tone down the Blocking if its considered overpowered, simple fact is the Health is needed for Raiding when the boss can clout you for 8000!.

Emilia on Magtheridon
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=5#85

Q u o t e:
cons: We take more damage then prot warriors since there mitigation is better and it dont really cut it at the end games for MT I think. It dont really help that we have over 1k less hp then warriors and get much less bonus in dodge parry etc compared to warriors. This is probably the only problem I can see, that our mitigation is abit to low. Iam concerned we wont have any place in 25 man except as offtanks.

Youngblood on Dunemaul
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=5#83

Q u o t e:
Weaknesses

But, like may others have said, the real issue with paladin tanking is lack of HP combined with a lack of mitigation. The paladin does not currently have the talents, spells or HP to withstand massive spike damage. Now, unless I am completely mistaken, a lvl 70 warrior with no gear on still has 1.5k HP more than a lvl 70 paladin with no gear on. At present, both the available gear and initial class stats lack the stamina boost necessary for the paladin to be completely viable as a maintank.

I wish the developers would experiment with getting rid of the leapfrogging of Ardent Defender. That talent is not really working as it should at the moment since it only helps in a few, very select, circumstances. If a paladin has 15k HP Ardent Defender doesn’t kick in until the paladin has less than 3k HP. Many mobs, foremost bosses, hit harder than 3k. Thus (if I’ve understood things correctly) when the paladin has 3.1k health, and gets hit for 3.2k, the Ardent Defender is completely bypassed, and the paladin dies.

Also, the Weapon Expertise talent is not worthy of it’s place in the protection tree. I’d love to see that talent exchanged for something worthwhile.

Gear

And about the gear question. Like many others have said, the warrior tanking set also boosts their pure tanking abilities more than what the paladin one does. I am, like Quantumdelta, considering not going for the paladin protection set, and instead use plate without +spellpower and +Int, and add such necessary stats from a good +spellpower weapon and gems. With the stamina issues I explained above, that seems more attractive to me at the present. I’d like to see the paladin sets changed though, especially since they often have set bonuses not available in other gear. (And I’ve stated my views on the Crystalforge graphics so many times now that I’ll just say I wish they were changed too.)

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

7. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:46:55 PST

Llira on Scarshield Legion
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=3#47

Q u o t e:
I agree on the "too much int and mp5" thing, but don't tell me you'd rather tank in the crappy felsteel set than tier 4... that's just wrong.. there are lots of random blues that beat that set by a wide margin for that matter. Don't overestimate armor, it's nice enough but there's better stuff to use itemisation points on than extra armor - unless it's feral tanking gear. I'd take more block value/rating or stamina any day.
When looking at t4 shoulders for instance, they do pack a great deal of mitigation stats, and you could easily slap another 24 sta worth of gems into them. They're not as bad as you make them out to be - just in need of a little fine-tuning.

Morn on Executus
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=3#46

Q u o t e:
Not the Protection set. Not as long the devs spend more of the item budget on INTELLECT rather than Stamina. I mean, look at the shoulders: awful! It has 18 stamina and 22 intellect, then consider stamina is 50% cheaper than intellect (so it's really 12 stam / 22 int item budget wise, laughable)!

I do wonder what the hell they're thinking with Justicar Armor, are we supposed to offtank adds and then use the set to heal? Might I ask then, why bother getting this set at all? I mean, if the thing you're tanking is so trivial you survive with that gear, you'll be just fine in healing plate. And why bother speccing Protection if that is our tanking role? A Holy Paladin with some points in Prot will do just fine, having a Protection Paladin with awful healing to offtank boss adds and then switch to healing is actually hurtful to the raid. A Holy Paladin will do that AND have excellent healing when he's not tanking. No one is gearing up to tank trivial enemies (anything less than bosses) and no one is gonna spec Protection to tank trivial enemies when a Holy/Prot Paladin does that AND has utility outside tanking.

So either:
- Get rid of most intellect/mp5. I would opt for converting it into extra armor (like the Felsteel set, which I would use over Justicar tbh) so our lack of hp is offset by reduced blows. We would have our own unique spot between warriors and druid; less armor and hp than druids, but less crushing blows received. More armor than warriors and the same amount of crushing blows but less hp which the extra armor will help cushion.
- Replace Weapon Expertise with a talent that converts xx% of your int into stam.

Llira on Scarshield Legion
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=3#45

Q u o t e:
Cons: Lower base hp than 2 other tank classes.
Somewhat poor itemisation design; there's plenty of gear intended for tanking paladins, but it has usually got too much int/mp5 and too little sta/block value/parry/dodge. Our protection tier4 and 5 sets are good examples of this. Warriors get far more of an improvement to tanking stats over random blues with their tier sets. We do not need much int for tanking, and we don't need mp5 at all. Spiritual attunement covers all mana issues anyway.
Bit harder to tank aggro wiping untauntable mobs than for a warrior.
Less tools against caster mobs than a warrior (perfectly fine, but it's a con anyway)
Vulnerable to silencing or mana draining mobs.. in theory. Hasn't been a real problem for me.
Unable to tank magic/holy immune targets.

Not at true endgame yet, but so far my tanking is going fine, and I'm enjoying it a great deal. However I'm afraid that the hp gap will widen unless our tier armor sets for protection get revised somewhat. By all accounts 25 man raid bosses hit *very* hard (10k MS, 8k normal hit - gruul I think?) - so we will need that hp if we're to be considered viable tanks for anything of that magnitude.

Cezzar on Al'Akir
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=3#44

Q u o t e:
I'm tanking in basicly all the instances or planing to atleast, and what i've seen so far is that we excel in multi taking, but we simply have to little hp to do it propperly. I've just rounded 10.5k HP unbuffed with my first piece of T4 and several blue lvl 70 tank items, but I see my guild warriors easely go up to 12k hp unbuffed. What I don't get is that we are designed to multi tank but we lack the mitigation for it. I can hardly tank in heroic instances if i have to tank more than 2 adds and it is needed cuz you can't go around with 2 mages and a hunter/warlock for the traps or chain fearing all the time. What we realy need is, as a holy tank, some Defence against magical sources so we kinda is wanted/needed agains some magic casters and as we have the lowes amount of HP so we realy need some pro's for tanking as in karazhan it's mostly single target tanking and not multi. Also our Ardent Defender is worth nothing tbh cuz when we get to 20% HP we are having maby 3k HP left if fully buffed, and i've taken many hits for 4k+ in rapid succesion, so either make it kick in a bit sooner, say 35-40% maby or make it a sort of shield wall wich halves all dmg taken for the next 15-20 secs. And don't tell me we get to many of the warrior tanking skills then cuz what about druids gauge and charge and so on?:) This is just my expirience and a little wish for the devs maby:)
As a final note I must say i'm abit disappointed about the faction rewards... Not a single weapon that realy screams paladin tanking weapon. Neither is there any plate for prot paladins... Well maby there is one or two but none of an excelent quality like the druid mace from the Cenarion Expidition. And atm there is only the gloves from the T4 prot set that is worth anything, I'd rather and is using random blues.

Augustin on Runetotem
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=3#40

Q u o t e:
As far as damage reduction go's it's so so my guild healers have to heal me more than they would a warrior but that 50% less damage under 20% is a massive boost. I'd be a useless tank without it.

Cariddi on Aerie Peak
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=2#38

Q u o t e:
Worst itemization ever. Lots of point spent in useless stats (I.E. Mana X Sec. We really dont need that in raid situation, or even in Heroic. The massive healing needed will never leave us OOM)

Popsikle on Vek'nilash
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1#12

Q u o t e:
why do u morons insist on tanking when warriors and feral druids do the job better? just dont get.
You have less hp than them, less migitation and what not...

Sageth on Thunderhorn
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=166016865&sid=1#9

Q u o t e:
On single targets like bosses, paladins are less good than for example druids or warriors, just because they have way less health. 11k buffed or 14k does make a difference when the boss crits you or something like that and your health starts to drop fast.

Zacara on Earthen Ring
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=6#111

Q u o t e:
From what I've seen paladin threat is awesome, the main paladin problem is that damage mitigation wise they are like an arms or fury warrior.

Cowmoo on Haomarush
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=6#110

Q u o t e:
My worries about paladin tanks are only that we're not gonna be as damage reducing (incoming damage) as warriors(or druids).

Paladins need stamina, armor, block%, dodge% & parry% just as warriors. Paladins also need mana (intellect) and with +spelldamage they can also increase their threat. A paladin without mana will lose aggro eventually - luckily in raids it's no problem with multiple healers spamming on ya.

But, for raids:

If a paladin can't have the same incoming damage reducing skills as a warrior, my guild will NEVER use a paladin to tank anything importan. Paladins will become a "tank this for fun" character that tanks bosses we've killed 20 times already, or boring trash mobs when warriors wants to DPS.

If the paladin can't hold a 25% dodge/parry/block and xxx hitpoints while a warrior can, and while holding those stats aggro & mana and other damage reductions ain't similar - it's bye bye paladin as tank. Why should we use a tank that got high incoming damage on him? Answer is - we shouldn't, we're a raiding guild, we aim for progess and we use the best materials at our hands.

Sure, Blizz can throw in some pity mobs here and there that don't need the best damage reduction to tank so they paladins can be happy.

But Im sure as hell hope that the gear I collect now will make me just as strong as a warrior in tanking, otherwise Im finally rerolling as I can't be arsed to spam FoL for 1 more year.

Talen on Vek'nilash
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=6#102

Q u o t e:
I dunno. If itemisation is a problem, I keep thinking that perhaps they'll do something like reduce the itemisation cost for Int and Mp5 on plate....so Paladin tanking gear could be equivalent in the vital tanking stats to warriors and still retain the needed Int and MP5 ;) (and maybe spell crit/damage) that Paladins need.

Resilve on Dentarg
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=5#99

Q u o t e:
Yes your items may be idencticle to a warriors, so you have the same stam/defence/parry/dodge and whatever...but when things get serious and tier sets are needed for tanking our tank sets jsut do NOT compare to warriors, so then there really is no point in paladin tanks.

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

8. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:47:27 PST

Mitsune on Darksorrow
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=5#84

Q u o t e:
Agreed. The problems lie in gear and talent (not plural) - WE is useless, spelldamage is a must, m5s is redundant. Yes, m5s is nice when soloing and such, but it's a dedicated PvE raid tier set, DO give it raid viability.

Oh, and T5 prot is a joke. T4 is closer to the mark.

Ezarioth on Ravencrest
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=5#83

Q u o t e:
Just to compile some kind of list of main concerns regarding paladintanking:

General attitude - paladin's are seen as healbots that "can't tank"

Itemization - Paladin sets have int and mp/5 which both are completely useless in raid environment where Spiritual Attunement gives mana back at the rate of 500-3000 mana per 5 seconds depending on healing. We need otherwise same stats as warrior exept +dmg instead of str.

Low base health - Paladins have about 1,2k-1,4k less HP without equipment than warrior at lvl 70

No unique abilities or benefits against bosses - Paladin's main strength seems to be their capability to hold multiple targets and have a bit easier time mitigatin damage in AoE situation (Redoubt) than other tanking classes, but against single, hard hitting enemy paladin lacks mitigation and can't offer that much better threat generation than other classes

Healing heavy encounters - Encounters where heavy healing is needed prot paladins are the first to be put to heal, because feral druids offer both greater DPS and higher mitigation and those encouters usually have at least one hard hitting boss that bear exels in tanking. While occassional healing isn't bad, having too many situations where prot paladin is better suited to healing than to tanking makes the whole tree less viable, especially if there are no encounters where prot paladin would be clearly better choice than warrior or druid.

Conclusion: Paladin tier sets need to be reworked and both int and mp/5 replaced with more usefull stats, especially stamina. There should be boss encounters that favor paladin tanks like for example High King Maulgar favors druids so raids actually have a good reason to bring prot paladin other than "we don't have enough druids and warriors don't want to spec prot"

And yes, for the love of all that is beautifull, pleace replace Weapon Expertise with anything even remotely usefull.

P.S. This has been said for many many times, but prot specced paladin exels only in tanking. We can ofcourse heal, but it is pretty pathetic compared to holy paladins and I won't even talk about DPS. Also, we can't parry or block while casting, so against raid bosses healing increases damage taken more than you can heal. Paladin, while maintanking can only tank, not heal, just like warriors and druids.

Rudegirl on Ravencrest
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=5#81

Q u o t e:
Maitanking = agro and mitigation. Keeping agro is what takes skill normally, with my paladin that was never an issue even when i was undergeared and outleveled by the DPS classes. Reason paladins aint viable is because we got too little mitigation compared to warriors and druids, and that has nothing to do with skill at all

Brianfly on Dragonblight
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=4#64

Q u o t e:
It's not like it's being unfair to warriors, giving us more intellect and m/5s than their gear, they wouldn't even use it. I mean, they get agility, which we don't get, so why are we still missing out on the stamina they get?

Edc on Sylvanas
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=3#53

Q u o t e:
Our defensive options are lower then a warriors options. We can not make a boss hit less with demo shout. We can not pop last stand boosting our hp for a few more moments. We do not have a decent shield wall. (Dont tell me Ardent Avenger is actually usefull, once you hit below 20% you are most likely going to die on the next hit). We have block, you forget to mention blocks only block parts of the damage.

Edc on Sylvanas
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=2#33

Q u o t e:
Full dreadnaught might be a bit outdated by now but seeing that paladin threat is alot better but mitigation isnt I don't see any paladin being the tank on the first kills of most encounters simply because mitigation is alot more important then aggro which is on most fights not a real problem.

Teenee on Nordrassil
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=2#30

Q u o t e:
Done many instances with a guild buddy who is a a paladin. It was very good with low levels. But as he reached 70 it started to get bad, he'd just die from bosses doing too much dmg.

Daine on Defias Brotherhood
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1&pageNo=2#26

Q u o t e:
Tanked Karazhan through the first three bosses today; Attumen/Midnight, Moroes and Maiden with no problems whatsoever. The problem with paladin tanking is indeed in the itemisation. Mp5s, intellect etc are wonderful for 5 mans, but in raiding it's just not needed as Spiritual Attunement is a fantastic skill (watch that get nerfed).

Benedicto on Proudmoore
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1#17

Q u o t e:
I'm currently more worried about Paladin HP. I feel we should be getting a little bit more.

Talen on Vek'nilash
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1#14

Q u o t e:
Personally, from the (admittedly few) reports I've had about the high end content (raids and heroics), I'm more worried about the ability of a paladin to survive the high damage spikes of that content, and the strain that places on healers. Hopefully, Paladins will tank even the toughest, meanest bosses well enough for people to consider them a valid tank but from what I've heard, the low HP pool/mitigation is proving worrying.

Well, perhaps Blizzard should reduce the itemisation cost of MP5 and/or Int on plate? Just as they did with stamina. After all, we need the same stats as warriors...to a large degree...and if itemisation and wasted points is a problem.....

Quantumdelta on Outland
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=126682689&sid=1#11

Q u o t e:
Generally speaking our avoidance is a little less impressive than warriors, and we get a lot of wasted itemisation points on our paladin specific tanking gear (we REALLY don't need m5s on our tanking gear, really, if we're tanking anything of significance we spend most of our time at 95% mana due to heals anyway) and for 5mans you need a slightly higher base mana pool than for 10-25mans.

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

9. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:48:09 PST

Emilia on Magtheridon
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=8#144

Q u o t e:
This is about the same as I have done. I tanked a few more 5 mans then that thou and tanked some bosses in karazhan. Still I can confirm that this is in general what the healers say it just is much harder to keep a paladin alive compared to a prot warrior or druid tank. It just wont cut it for end game where it will be very hard allready to keep a prot warrior alive.

I did heroic BF the other day and we gave up because 2nd boss was just to hard. The priest get oom and I take to much damage when doing the adds before boss. Group setup was 3 mages me and a holy priest which as I have heard are supposed to be the best setup (3 mages that is) for 2nd boss in there but still it failed and it did feel like if they just would had a prot warrior it would all be fine...

Lynne on Khaz'goroth
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=7#134

Q u o t e:
Just to add here a few comments.

Tanked all 5man instances - we are clearly the best 5man tank there is, bar none.
Tanked some heroic instances - see above.
Tanked Kharazan - worked fine in a team with a prot warrior. I can handle trash better, he can handle bosses better, even though i tanked some just to have it done. Some encounters require two equal tanks anyway.

fine until here.

Did this in "warrior" gear - since I neither need +Int when I tank, nor mp5, nor +spelldmg. Why in warrior gear? Best Avoidance/Mitigation I can get - I get so much mana due to Spiritual Attunement, i can tank forever when i get healed (at leat in heroic/khara, the damage I receive in normal instances isn't enough, so there "paladin tank items" have a use...), can use all i have (so more then enough aggro generated to keep the mobs/bosses) with NO NEED AT ALL for Int/Spelldmg/MP5.
With all this, i've 11k hp unbuffed, 13k armor, and 515 def. That's fine. Considering Avoidance, there is simply no warrior better them me... right now - how could he, we have the very same items.

More isn't possible.

Why?

Itemisation...

Just look Kharazan. 1st boss. He drops... Warrior-only Bracers. Nothing else is class restricted in there. Why? So i'm always weaker then a warrior? No "Tank-Paladin" drops at all there, i'm not even allowed to take mentioned bracers - gladly all other tankplate drops from Kharazan are usuable by Paladins though. Fine for me.

The Warrior T-Sets are (way) better then the poor designed Paladin T-Sets. T4- Tankset is fine. T5 is the worst - it's a healer set with so little +def... just ridiculous bad. Their gear - and HP - will be soon so massively better, that there is no viable option to tank as a paladin in 25 man raiding. Never ever, we were the weakest tank, and we are still the weakest tank, because we won't get even close with our Items.
My Solution? Allow Paladin-T-Sets more Jewel slots. That way we can custom Design them more, maybe even good enough to really tank in Endgame content.

We have some flaws, yes, those were mentioned above a few times, but all in all right now we are a great asset. ProtWarrior+ProtPaladin is a way better team then two Warriors (or two Paladins...), but this will change in the next few month, if we don't have access to equal (or better, the very same!) items.

Almeron on Ragnaros
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=7#122

Q u o t e:
After we were (or i was) so unsuccesfull we went to old hillsbrad, and in the meanwhile i respecced quickly to prot.
With 2 healer on my tail i was able to tank through the insta, and area-tanking was quite easy just as holding agro,but i needed too many heal. much more than a feraldrood or even a non-prot warrior needs. Or at least taht was what my healers said after the trip.

Turanmegil on Trollbane
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=7#120

Q u o t e:
-As a paladin tank with experiences in all 5 mans, some heroic instances and Karazhan (why isn't my avatar 70 yet >.>) I can say that aggro wise we are pretty much fine (well I'd like a more active skill to gain aggro then judgement and seals but our reactive skills are good enough). Mitigation wise... we are lacking. I have decent tanking gear (not as good as I'd like but pretty ok overal) sitting on almost 500 def, 10.2k hp and 12k armor. I did a heroic slave pens run which went pretty much fine. I could tank one mob pretty ok, 2 mobs only for a few seconds. The healer that was with me then did it again but then with a druid tank. He later explained to me that it was much much easier for him to keep the druid alive then me. Simply because of the substantial HP and AC difference. And in karazhan when tanking trash I see that our (prot) warrior or druid tank don't take as much spike dmg from mobs that I do. Paladin tanks are viable but a much bigger strain on healers then a druid or warrior. Paladins simply lack the pure dmg reduction and HP that druids and warriors have (without gear warriors already have a 1k+ hp leap on paladins)

Palladia on Ragnaros
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=5#99

Q u o t e:
The problem we still have is itemisation for Retribution and Protection pala in the first place, not talents. And also the narrow minded ppl that can't accept paladins getting at the frontline.

Coldness on Frostmane
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=5#98

Q u o t e:
And on the top of that, warriors and druids have much more health and armor which is critical according to a nasty damage that local mobs do (some do even more damage than bosses)

Vorren on Bloodfeather
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=4#70

Q u o t e:
What it basically boils down to, is that a warrior has more default skills geared towards tanking than a paladin does. This gives a warrior way more control over his aggro generation than a paladin does. A paladin has to rely on getting hit in order to get the most threat, which makes it a lot harder for a paladin to regain aggro once it’s lost. The most important problem however, is the way our damage mitigation works: like everything else with the paladin it’s uncontrollable. We only have our armor and parry/block to reduce damage, nothing more. Although this isn’t really a problem in 5-man instances, it seems it’s a huge issue in raiding environements. Also, as others have mentioned, itemization also lacks great tanking quality. Mainly the mana/5sec and stamina is lacking.

In order to fix these issues, a paladin would need more control over the fight. He needs an ability that can mitigate damage on demand, while the mobs stay put. Shield Wall, Shield Block and Last Stand are abilities that allow a warrior to do this, but aren’t seen in a controllable form on a paladin. Ardent Defender would be awesome if it was made an active ability with a cooldown, rather than a passive one (which is making it leapfroggable at the moment). Another addition that is needed, is an ability that builds threat on demand (not relying on a melee swing) on a single target. It could even share the Judgement cooldown, as long as it is a guaranteed threat builder.

A last suggestion is regarding our class defining skill Divine Shield: it is mostly useless while tanking. In fact, it’s rarely useful outside healing, leaving out our other two roles. I would welcome a change to Divine Shield that allows us to keep aggro while shielded. I would really only want it for tanking purposes, so it could be made possible in the protection tree as a talent. In fact, replace the weapon skill with a talent that does this.

Talen on Vek'nilash
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=4#61

Q u o t e:
Not yet. I've been busy with some Draenai and BE alts..;)

I can just go by what some friends who have done so have told me.

In essence, there are situations in heroic and raids where damage is dealt in massive blows, even through plate.

But...even prot paladins don't have the HP to absorb such damage and other classes tend to have better mitigation against such damage. The end result is that I'm told paladins die sooner, anbd more easily than other tanks and that they need to be kept at a higher level of health and thus place a bigger strain on healers.

Neither of these are good. Thisn is a side efefct of the way our talents have been structured for multi-MoB tanking. The common example is Ardent defender...great for many small damage hits but almost totally useless against the big hits which cause the big damage spikes....its too easily leapfrogged by such hits. Now, one type of damage is most associated with trash, the other with bosses.

Now, as to how well itemisation plays....and if these are just the initial jitters...well, I'll have to see. All I'm saying is that, for now, it seems to be a potential probelm for if it does turn out to be true, then we may as well say goodbye to any thoughts of seeing any paladins tanking anything other than trash or normal 5 man. And they can probably do that with other builds.

Youngblood on Dunemaul
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=2#36

Q u o t e:
Well Ommra, it's only possible to have that playstyle if the game allows it. Currently paladins seem to be able to maintank normal 5-mans well. But I am still not sure about 10- and 25-mans or heroic 5-mans. Paladins still have a big problem dealing with damage spikes and mitigation.

So, a question you could forward to the developers: Is Ardent Defender going to be adjusted so it can't be leapfrogged?

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

10. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 15:48:43 PST

Karvedys on Skullcrusher
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=2#28

Q u o t e:
Ommra, I do agree with you that paladins are meant for tanking and they can tank. And I tanked myself too in 5mans while leveling (level 52 atm).
However I am really worried about its position in raids. There were already much concerns raised regarding itemization and talents, I am not going to repeat them here.
However I have one example from our guild's Karazhan's. They do have tried prot warrior as MT, they do tried Feral druid as MT on all boses to figure out which works best. However when I suggest about molderthorn
Sourpaladin tank the reply usually is "not worth, too little hp".

Well I do agree that the only paladin in our guild is deep retri and he's not even thinking about tanking, but I do and going to gather tanking gear at level 70.
Right now such talks are quite depressing.

Well I guess I have to prove I paladins can do that and do fine. However to prove - you need to be given opportunity, which I fail to see atm.

Oh yes, we are awesome OTs or AOE trash tanks, however most boses encounters designed with one meanie (if it has adds - usually they are dealt with and then boss time). And all encounters but few (Frankiss in pre-TBC) require tank to tank only 1 monster. While paladin mostly shines tanking 4+ due his aggro generation mechanics.

As it stands now - there is no requirement to have prot paladin in raids as there is no boss tankable only by paladin. Thus no need to test how paladin performs on other bosses as protection warrior (which always required) or feral druid (which is requred due polymorphing add at Gruul's lair) are usually enough.
My vision of paladin only type boses would be that guild has to have at least one protection paladin (more than 11 in prot) at least just for him. So in order for that paladin not to slack though remaining encouters, they could give him more tanking positions.

Loras on Azjol-Nerub
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1&pageNo=2#24

Q u o t e:
So how come it's so hard to get decent tanking gear?

Ezarioth on Ravencrest
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1#17

Q u o t e:
Only real problems with paladintanking is the attitude of your guild and, to lesser extent, amount of int compared to stamina in our tier set.

Terrahero on Boulderfist
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=123522876&sid=1#15

Q u o t e:
Paladins are AoE tanks, ncie for trash and simple 5-man but doesnt feel comfortable for raid or heroic.

Of all the 3 tanking classes we got least HP and dmg migitation.

Sageth on Thunderhorn
Source:http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=145134530&sid=1#2

Q u o t e:
Only problem so far is that in heroic instances mobs hit to hard, but that is most likely due to my gear :) I got rather low hitpoints (8.5k unbuffed) while I have about the same gear as our furry warrior who was protection till a couple of days ago when he asked me to go protection and tank instead of him.

Diaboro on Burning Legion
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=147964795&sid=1

Q u o t e:
Hey all,

I recently started playing a paladin, and so far seems fun, but since I used to be a main tank, I'm leveling as protection spec. Now I don't know what a paladin can actually do at 70 aside from tanking and healing (Not a very big fan of the healing part), and it seems a bit lacking.

Example,
With my warrior I have about 13.5-14k HP unbuffed (You can see my profile below) and tried to do a profile with a paladin and all I can get is about 11k but a bit higher block rate and value. Now what scares me even more is that I have to get more spell damage for more solid aggro which means gimping the defensive stats even more.

Megor on US Smolderthorn
Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80399487&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
Well, it's just happened to me too now. I had to level with my raid leader tonight and step off the MT position for the 1st time on Maulgar. I've worked every day for nothing but tank gear and MT'd Kara up through Nightbane as well as Maulgar, but our second Kara raid has an up and coming prot warrior who has almost the same gear as I do (with a few lesser pieces in some areas). The problem is that, even with slightly better gear, I can't keep up with a his HP while maintaining the same level of avoidance (by about 2.2k less hp with the same dodge/parry/miss, or 11% less dodge/parry with equal HP).

I'm at a point where I have to ask myself what my raid role actually is. If I am relegated to OT most of the time in a 25 man, my full blown prot spec feels very limited considering that it appears I will need to heal more often than tank. I think I should seriously consider a holy/sub-prot spec so I can offer good healing to my raid once my mob is dropped.

Blizzard: an answer to your intentions on a tanking hierarchy would be really critical for me and my guild now. I need to tell them whether or not a full prot paladin will actually be an asset to my raid comparitively to a primarily holy/sub-prot OT spec.

Dooa on Darkspear
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=206990726&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
At leverl 70 a warrior has 1200 hp more than a paladin as base, and with the new talented Commanding shout (CS) he will have another 1450. This gives a warrior 2650 more hp than a paladin before we look at tanking itemization, more than a flask. Wtih BoK and Sacred duty a paladin has 11.6% more stamina, and each point of stamina is worth 10hp. That means the break even point is 2207Stamina.

This level of Hp disparity does not just affect 25man raid bossess hitting like patchwerk, it creates a gulf between paladin and warrior tanking even in 5man and 10man content. Even a non-protection warriorcan expect to have more than a flasks worth of extra hp compared to a similarly geared paladin. To fulfil our statedrole as the healing tanking hybrid we need to have our base hp brought inline with warriors as a minimum corolloary to our effectiveness; with warriors and bears who are MT, the idea of a paladin who (even with a flask) has less HP than an unflasked warriorbear is untenable.

Neikura on Outland
Source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=207050716&sid=1#0

Q u o t e:
If I am to be able to speak to my Guild Council honestly and say "Yes, I'll be able to tank Gruul" or some bosses deeper in Karazhan, I am like most other Paladins going to need to see some improvement made to our gear.

I'm the MT and Guild Master of my guild, I don't want to gear myself up, and then hit a massive brick wall because Blizzard decide to destroy the Paladins one chance of MTing vs hard raid bosses i.e. Gruul, I've tried hard to get as much Stamina as I can (Check my gear/enchants/slots) but I can see it not being enough vs a warriors itemisation and base stats in the future.

Am I right in thinking this or is the difference between Warrior/Paladin health pools not as great as I'm making it out to me?

Oh also, I'm enjoying this class a lot, I love the tanking style.

I think I started off this thread wanting to say something different but I've definately blabbed.

Oh! That was it, mana5/sec? Seriously?

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

12. Re: To be added 03/03/2007 16:14:52 PST

Q u o t e:
Jesus Younblood, you really do mean business with so many reserved slots ;)

A thing worth doing is worth doing well, or not at all.

I just hope I have made my point well enough to get the feedback through to the people in charge...

Nevron

< Death before Dishono… >

13. Re: To be added 03/03/2007 16:15:48 PST

Jebus, it was serious!

Ruling groups with an Iron fist since 97'

Ezarioth

< tontut >

14. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 16:19:44 PST

Thank you for digging up all those posts and compiling them to one thread.

/salute

I also agree with your original post with one small exeption: in my opinion resilience isn't that good tanking stat for us, because

1) we would get only half of it's benefit as one of the main goals of tanking is to reduce mob's crit chance to zero (no use reducing crit damage) and

2) our threat generation is already high enough for us to keep aggro even if parry and dodge pushed some blocks off the attack table. Completely avoiding 6k hit instead of blocking some 300-400 dmg adds great deal to mitigation.

P.S. I reported your OP for sticky to ensure it won't go unnoticed by CMs

aka ^Torakka^ in IRC -- http://ctprofiles.net/47889

Wannabe tank since 1.7, tank since 2.0

Tankadin's bibble: http://tanking.sneakykitty.com/?page_id=3

Gunabublia

< Dark Crusaders >

15. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 16:22:11 PST

Just saying I largely agree with this, with the exception of the need of Resilience on our tanking gear. Getting enough defense rating to get +120 (or +140 defense if you don't have Anticipation) isn't that hard, and defense is simply better since we have the full amount of avoidance passives available to us. Resilience is thus slightly more useless than even int or mana/5 would be on our tanking sets, since it just plain does nothing once you've reached the proper amount of defense.

What we do want is some agi, block rating, dodge rating, parry rating and block value.

Also on the concerns of set bonuses: Holding aggro is not a major issue, so preferably our set bonuses should provide boosts to survivability. Justicar's set bonuses? I couldn't care less. Righteous Armor? I suppose the second bonus is nice, but not worth wearing 4 pieces. Crystalforge? I suppose the second set bonus is alright, but again as the set itemization currently stands, it's not worth using.

Rawr.

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

16. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 16:29:01 PST

Q u o t e:
I also agree with your original post with one small exeption: in my opinion resilience isn't that good tanking stat for us, because

1) we would get only half of it's benefit as one of the main goals of tanking is to reduce mob's crit chance to zero (no use reducing crit damage) and

2) our threat generation is already high enough for us to keep aggro even if parry and dodge pushed some blocks off the attack table. Completely avoiding 6k hit instead of blocking some 300-400 dmg adds great deal to mitigation.

P.S. I reported your OP for sticky to ensure it won't go unnoticed by CMs

Thanks for the report :-)

I included resilience because, if I have understood it correctly, it lowers damage caused by criticals. As I said, +defense is all well and good, but defense also adds things like dodge. Dodge means that the player doesn't get hit, and that lowers the threat gain.

It may sound strange, but in some situations I'd rather be hit and take a little damage in order to cause some threat to the mob than not be hit.

Youngblood

< Triumvirate >

17. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 16:33:24 PST

By the way, Ezarioth and Gunabublia (and anyone else), I am naturally interested in getting input. If I get a lot of input on a subject which contradicts my views (you have both raised resilience) I may edit my OP.

However, as I understood it, resilience works against both melee and spells. Defense doesn't if I am not sadly mistaken. Protection paladins have even less mitigation versus casters than versus melee, so resilience does help a lot there.

(But resilience does confuse me a bit, so please correct me if I am wrong.)

[ Post edited by Youngblood ]

Gunabublia

< Dark Crusaders >

19. Re: Protection Itemisation Feedback 03/03/2007 16:38:58 PST

Q u o t e:
By the way, Ezarioth and Gunabublia (and anyone else), I am naturally interested in getting input. If I get a lot of input on a subject which contradicts my views (you have both raised resilience) I may edit my OP.

However, as I understood it, resilience works against both melee and spells. Defense doesn't if I am not sadly mistaken. Protection paladins have even less mitigation versus casters than versus melee, so resilience does help a lot there.

(But resilience does confuse me a bit, so please correct me if I am wrong.)

It's basically a PvP stat versus a PvE stat. Basically, a lesser known fact about mobs is that only normal mob melee attacks can crit; thus you're only worried about physical crit. All mobs basically have a crit rate of "5 + (level difference * 0.2)", or 5.6% for level 73 mobs against a level 70. Once that's out of the table, the secondary effect of resilience is gone.

Basically, for PvE resilience is good if you need it to still achieve crit immunity, otherwise the dodge/parry/block/chance to get missed also provided by defense will outclass Resilience for tanking (You already get about 17% avoidance from the defense to get crit immune). If you're worried about not generating enough aggro, you're better off simply swapping in some more spell damage. ;)

Neither will help much against spells in PvE.

[ Post edited by Gunabublia ]

Rawr.

Forum > Classes > Paladin