Greetings again fellow rogues,

I wanted to have a little TC session about the talent Vile Poison. Now I'm not going to be the one doing the crafting (I'm lazy like that, or stupid. You decide :p) However, in my constant search for the optimal PvE-Raid build I'm wondering if this talent is worth saccrificing a few points for.

Here's my current build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wGe0oxZMeEz0Vzx0hot

And this is what I'm thinking of doing:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0oyZMgEz0Vzx0hot

Now as you can see:
- 1 point from imp SnD (2/3 in new build)
- 2 points from Remorseless Attacks (gonna miss you! ;_;)
- 1 point from Imp. Evisc.
- 1 point from Lethality

These free points are then being put into Vile Poisons.

From all of these talents from which I stole the talent points, it's rumoured they add very little to your DPS, poisons however, add a great deal to your overall DPS (Did I read 7-15% somewhere?) So improving that damage could very well be a noticable boost to your DPS.

Damage on Deadly Poison: 180 over 12 sec.
180 * 5 (stacks) = 900 damage
900 damage *1.20 (20% from Vile Poisons Talent)= 1080 over 12 seconds.

So we could potentially have that ticking away.

Instant poison:

146 - 194 Nature damage instantly applied with a 20% flat chance to proc.

146 * 1.20 (again, talent 20%) = ~175
194 * 1.20 = ~233

Ending up with 175 - 233 instantly applied.

However, I do not know, with the 20% flat proc rate. (And let's take a 2.6 weapon speed for arguments sake) how that damage translates into DPS. (First question someone can answer perhaps?)

Then there's Envenom:

Normally doing a 1018 damage, negating armor so should always do just about this damage. However requiring 5 stacks of Deadly Poisons and 5 Combo Points to reach it max. potential.

So: 1018 * 1.20 = ~1222
Crit would be around 2444.

However, reading these forums, they also reportedly go for 3k and 3.2k (Can anyone confirm/explain that)

That would mean it would at least surpass the base damage of eviscerate (At the sacrifice of requiring more work to realise the max potential)

So, what are you guys thoughts on this.

Theorycraft away and lets keep it constructive please. My goal is to find out if Vile Poisons is a viable talent.

Thanks,

Zuktel

PS. Forgive any typos/completely idiotic mistakes. Just point them out and I'll edit my post.

first:D

this will be interesting:)

---

Q u o t e:

So: 1018 * 1.20 = ~1222
Crit would be around 2444.

However, reading these forums, they also reportedly go for 3k and 3.2k (Can anyone confirm/explain that)

---

Envenom: 5 doses: (720+AP*0.15) damage

1450 AP unbuffed
+220 BoM
+305 BS (non Imp)
+200 Bladefist's Breadth
Total: 2175 AP

720+ 2175*0,15 = 1046,25

1046,25*1,2*1,09*1,10 = 1505,3
(Envenom, Imp KS, Find weakness)

Additional modifiers like Misery, Imp. Hunter's Mark, Stormstrike, etc.. not taken into account, starting AP is kind of lowish; and yes i can confirm >3k crits.

While the setup sounds complicated, it really isn't. I usually run around with BoM and imp. BS in instances, the trinket can be popped every other minute, and Kidneyshotting a mob causes Imp. KS AND Find weakness to be active. I also often play with a hunter who does have Imp. Hunter's Mark; and sometimes with a shadowpriest which guarantees Misery.

I'm a bit confused about where the 720 comes from. Is this a predetermined base damage. And, how would Vile Poisons work into this?

Also, where does the listed 1018 damage disappear off to?

Sorry if I seem a bit daft, but would like this thread to be as clear as possible.

---

Q u o t e:
poisons however, add a great deal to your overall DPS (Did I read 7-15% somewhere?) So improving that damage could very well be a noticable boost to your DPS.

---

The 7-15% of your total damage sound reasonable, and you don't actually have to go any further to find out how Vile Poison affects your DPS:

gain % = unaffected damage % + 1.2 x affected (poison) damage %

so 5/5 Vile Poison will yield an 1.4-3.0% upgrade of your DPS.

---

Q u o t e:


The 7-15% of your total damage sound reasonable, and you don't actually have to go any further to find out how Vile Poison affects your DPS:

gain % = unaffected damage % + 1.2 x affected (poison) damage %

so 5/5 Vile Poison will yield an 1.4-3.0% upgrade of your DPS.

---

Makes a lot of sence actually. Heh

Now for the big question. Does it way up to the points that are being sacrificed for it? (1 in lethality, 1 Imp. SnD, 1 Imp. Evisc and 2 Remorseless)

---

Q u o t e:
I'm a bit confused about where the 720 comes from. Is this a predetermined base damage. And, how would Vile Poisons work into this?

---

Assassinette took the 5 CP value for Envenom(Rank 1) by mistake; for Envenom(Rank 2), base damage is 900 (the "new and improved tooltips" show some arbitrary numbers, sometimes factoring in talents, sometimes AP, sometimes not, so your 1018 is the result of some weird internal Blizzard calculation)...

... yeah, base damage is 900, and Vile Poisons (like most percentage modifiers) is factored in last, after AP-scaling, so you get

Envenom(Rank 2) with 5 CP/5 doses - (900 + 0.24 x AP) x 120% damage;

A (slow-mo) example for 1500 AP:

(900 + 0.24 x 1500) x 120% = (900 + 360) x 120% = (1260) x 1.2 = 1512


... and the 2nd part of my post above:


That's easily equal to what you loose with

---

Q u o t e:

- 1 point from imp SnD (2/3 in new build)
- 2 points from Remorseless Attacks (gonna miss you! ;_;)
- 1 point from Imp. Evisc.
- 1 point from Lethality

---

Of those, only imp SnD hurts a bit*, Remorseless Attacks get worse with the number of people you're grouping (or raiding) with, imp Evis becomes less important the more Envenom you use, and Lethality.. well, read my signature ^^ (it's affecting an even smaller part of your total DPS, in an even smaller way than Vile Poisons).

You'll likely have equal DPS, and would likely have higher if you leave imp SnD untouched (just take all you need from Lethality, hehe).


*) this is based on long term DPS simulations i ran

When i was mutilate combat, using envenom instead of evis the majority of the time, the breakdown of my damage seemed to show that if i specced vile poisons it wouldve increased my overall damage by 3.8%.

This wasnt a major math investigation of anything though but it seems to me if you look at how much poison damage you did during a fight then increasing that number by 20% would give a good indication of what vile poisons would do.

That was exactly the kind of information I was looking for Herb, thanks a bunch.

Well as I stated, I wanted this to be a DPS heavy, PvE-raid focused build. So remorseless is kind of out of the window there. 1 less point in Imp. SnD will make my DPS suffer a bit then, perhaps put that back to 3/3. Then the next question:

With upcomming raid instanced containing a lot of humanoids. Would the Talent "Murder" be more effective than 3 points in Lethality? Because that would make my build look more along the lines of:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboaZMeEz0Vzx0hot

Restoring Imp. Evisc and SnD to 3/3
But having Lethality 1/5 points (Due to required amount of Talent points) and taking 1 point out of Vile Poisons. In exchange I will have murder, dealing 2% damage. Is that talent worth anything? (or at least more then 3 Lethality and 1 vile poison point?)

(Also, sorry for hogging your attention like this. I'm sure you can find better things to do then discuss my talent build here. But it is hugely appreciated!)

What herb said: my calculation was mistakingly for Rank 1 envenom (old link in the favorites, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!)

---

Q u o t e:
What herb said: my calculation was mistakingly for Rank 1 envenom (old link in the favorites, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!)

---

You are forgiven. ;p

I actually took Vile Poisons in favor of Improved Poisons, since Shiv makes Improved Poisons slightly less useful, in favor of Vile Poisons. And I'll admit, I just love putting garrote, 5 Deadly Poisons and a rupture on about any kind of enemy. :)
Well, maybe not on elementals, skeletal mobs and spirit-like mobs, but you get the idea :)

first!

Im fairly sure that Murder would work out better due to the fact that it will scale on all dmg regardless whilst the others are only individual feature boosts. The issue with Vile poisons is self buffed you gain no scaling whereas lethality and murder scale with every upgrade you get, so it becomes a matter of raid buffing and how theyll interact with your abilities. Ill have a poke around when i get in but my gut feeling is that theres a crit/AP cut off point where lethality will outperform vile poisons and murder. Finding this cut off point should help a lot as you need to consider stas>talents to get a good idea of whats best for the build.

sort of like the cut of point for where hemo > SS

i would love to know the cut off point for where murder & lethality > vile poisens.

would be a hell of a task to work this out though... far to many variables i think.

I've taken a 20.41 build, with 4/5 vile poisons. It's good for high-armoured mobs, and I tend to use instant mainhand and deadly off, with using a fast offhand to "correct" stack of deadly to 5 in preparation for an Envenom.

In PvP it's not quite as gimped as I'd thought, and it's VERY nice against warriors. With combat potency and a speedy offhand I get some very nice CP gen with shiv, KS, then AR to build up 5 with Sinister and unleash an Envenom. It still suffers from other combat faults, but it's very nice for the majority of the time :D

I like this thread as well..

Its starting to dawn on me that there isnt a cookie cutter build for rogues well there are a few but they seem to be a bit boring and dont offer what we can really do in terms of dps and posion etc..

At the moment i am changing my build a lot from levels 60 - 70 i have swapped 5 times to try to get something i like, and i hope its not the normal cookie shape..

Good luck with the testing i look forward to seing the results

I am crap with numbers and % :)

If you have a stormstrike shaman in your group and youre specced vile poisons youre up for some CRAZY poison damage. I went to auchindoun with a shaman in the setup, we had the 5% damage bonus and a stormstrike debuff on the mobs.

My deadly poisons were constantly ticking for close to and over 300 and i had a lucky 3.6k crit on envenom aswell.

with all these damage increasing abilities, (if you have a smart raidleader to put a shaman with you for that lovely dps, not only from stormstrike but also the totems ofcourse) vile poisons could surely be a NICE dps increase in pve.

However, the viability of vile poisons in pvp is less in my opinion. It takes time and also timing to get good combo point generation / poison stacks together and fit it nicely into a combo.

the only classes i think its remotely viable against are ofcourse Teddybears and Protwarriors, and we dont luckily (have) to meet those very often.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0xfoEooiZ0eVb0EzZV

so would this build make any long time dmg in raids?
if u go for the vile poisions with Envenom and Snd as finishers