World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> 2.3 Ele Changes

Baruto

< Delirium >

221. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:01:00 PST

I really appreciate Tharfor for taking the time to do some theoretical calculations and am glad he had the 'courage' to admit he miscalculated at some point. If only this kind of communication had been established in the beginning of the 2.3 ptr.
Now the hour is late. Too late I'm afraid.

Mauls

< Graveyard Shift >

Arathor

222. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:02:57 PST

Q u o t e:
I thought I would smash my monitor when I saw blue theorycrafting.
I would like to thank all calm shamans that they corrected it in reasonable fashion. My first reaction was emotional and i felt an urge to post some insulting comment. Instead I would like to say: thank you shamans. Good that some of you are still patient enough to communicate with blizz representatives.

IMO you should be thanking Tharfor for wading into this mess and patiently trying to work out where we're coming from.

The guy's a moderator and most likely doesn't get one-to-one talks with Devs frequently, if at all. Getting involved in our issues isn't really his job as a forum moderator and tbh if someone uptight at Blizzard sees his involvement as interfering in the Dev's work we may not see him again.

Thanks for the interest Tharfor, hopfully we can get a Dev post in here at least or a resolution/compromise at best.

Maad

Turalyon

223. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:03:58 PST

If you respond to the blue responses with such disrespect ... I couldn't even imagine anyone being able to reply back to that. I can understand you're all so frustrated about this (not me, but that's ok).

But when I see some responses ... I think if someone told me this straight to my face ... I would not really care about what they were saying/ feeling. I think some replies just show too little respect towards someone, agreeing wth their replies or not, they replied to us, be happy and be respectful!

Don't mess with the forces of nature !!!

Shivera

< Dedication >

224. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:14:36 PST

Q u o t e:
If you respond to the blue responses with such disrespect ... I couldn't even imagine anyone being able to reply back to that. I can understand you're all so frustrated about this (not me, but that's ok).

But when I see some responses ... I think if someone told me this straight to my face ... I would not really care about what they were saying/ feeling. I think some replies just show too little respect towards someone, agreeing wth their replies or not, they replied to us, be happy and be respectful!

EXCUSE ME!?

We should be gratefull for response?
After what? a month we get a reply(a worthless one to say the least) and we should be gratefull, we pay for the game, from that money they get payed.
It's they who show no respect to us.
Respect u have to earn, Blizzard has not earned it.........

Ronan

< Eternals >

Ghostlands

225. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:27:14 PST

Q u o t e:

EXCUSE ME!?

We should be gratefull for response?
After what? a month we get a reply(a worthless one to say the least) and we should be gratefull, we pay for the game, from that money they get payed.
It's they who show no respect to us.
Respect u have to earn, Blizzard has not earned it.........

All i have to say is youre right

In one thing

Blizzard has not earned it.

Tharfor has.

Now show a bit of respect to the person behind that avatar who is seemingly the only one who knows what the term 'customer support' means.

Youre angry at them for not talking to us for so long. Yet when they do theyre met with responses from people like you, and its because of people like you that i dont blame them for not putting their necks on the line.

Tharfor has put his neck on the line, be grateful or dont waste your time posting your garbage.

Edit: Furthermore, if the subject of this conversation strays too far into the realms youre taking it, itll get locked, and thats bad for us all, as this is the closest we have come yet to getting the blues to see where were coming from.

[ Post edited by Ronan ]

Juzzie

Stormreaver

226. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:32:12 PST

Q u o t e:
Tharfor has.

/salute Tharfor

Vote YES for Gnome Deathknights!

Turumbar

< Durr Bundle Krew >

Kor'gall

227. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:48:36 PST

tbh, it's been more or less confirmed that 2.3 will be released next Wednesday... I doubt there is going to be any changes to the whole elemental dps nerf, SR and ES dispellability and the likes....

/emo
/cry
/cut
/suicide

But a big hug goes to Tharfur though <3

[ Post edited by Turumbar ]

Shivera

< Dedication >

228. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:51:15 PST

If anything Tharfur is clueless like all of Blizzard

Niamee

< DarkStorm >

Al'Akir

229. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 10:52:42 PST

Originally posted by Gurgthock (Elitist Jerks) on the US PTR forums:

Q u o t e:
Your impressions about what your damage "felt" like aren't really meaningful. Go to Dr. Boom on the live servers and nuke him for a couple of minutes. Measure your DPS and parse it out (with a mod or WWS). Do the same on the PTR. Nothing else really counts.

Yes, you're proccing LO a lot and that makes you "feel" like you're casting more, but in reality you're probably doing a few % less DPS (based on your +dam) than you have been on live.

Elemental shamans are the least common spec of shamans (the least common class as we all know). Their only potential overpowered area pre-2.3 was controlled arena burst (NS/EM/CL) and that has unquestionably been nerfed by the coefficient changes. But in terms of sustained damage, elemental shamans already lag behind many other hybrids and certainly all "pure" DPS classes.

Hunters can do well over 1500 DPS. Warlocks obviously can. Mages too, and for sure in 2.3 with their buffs. Rogues do all the time. DPS warriors and enhancement shamans too. Elemental shamans absolutely cannot break that barrier as things currently stand.

Here are some WWS parses from Hyjal/BT where basically everyone involved has 4pc t6, Hyjal/BT weapons, etc. Generally everyone here needs at most 3-4 pieces of gear to have "everything."

Teron Gorefiend: http://wowwebstats.com/jbwr61habcync?s=13263-13468 (elem sham #16 out of 16 pure DPS)
Supremus: http://wowwebstats.com/jbwr61habcync?s=9315-9641 (#11 out of 16 on a melee-unfriendly fight)
Naj'entus: http://wowwebstats.com/jbwr61habcync?s=8273-8497 (#15 out of 15 on another pure DPS fight where everyone just stands and nukes)
Azgalor: http://wowwebstats.com/jbwr61habcync?s=5689-5998 (#10 out of 15)
Gurtogg: http://wowwebstats.com/cgrz1rbw4qkja?s=2401-2752 (#12 out of 14)
Illidan: http://wowwebstats.com/cgrz1rbw4qkja?s=7524-8364 (#8 out of 14, on the most elemental shaman-friendly fight in the game due to chain lightning on clumped adds)

His gear is not "perfect" but it is very close to being so:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mal'Ganis&n=Conando

He needs bracers and shoulders and a cape, basically, and has everything else. He's a very good player who was one of our best healers until he switched to elemental TBC, uses /stopcasting well, and generally I can confidently say that the problem here is not with his skill as a player.

This is an illustration of how an elemental shaman fits in at the high end, in a raid of very skilled and attentive players who are all maximizing their DPS. What about this situation suggests that their sustained DPS needs to be lowered?

(Also note, ignore mana. Mana is irrelevant in raids. With a SPriest and/or JoW and/or consumables, mana is fine. A boost to longevity does not at all offset a reduction in sustained PvE DPS.)

My movies: http://www.warcraftmovies.com/viewauthor.php?id=9766
Stalk the blues! http://www.wowblues.com
2.3DPS nerf: http://files.filefront.com/damtwmv/;8885685;/fileinfo.html

Dracilla

< Storm Knights >

Earthen Ring

230. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:13:51 PST

I have also been on the test realms and done my own testing ive lost 100 - 200 damage per LB and LO needs to be upped on the damage if you want to keep are damage the same I think its just one way of putting it.

I thank Tharfor for atleast trying to understand are problems and I hope he has managed to convince the Devs that they are completely wrong in changing elemental tree at all.

If only They could put the WOW back in World Of Warcraft.

AND FROSTSHOCK!!!

Tharfor

Blizzard Poster

231. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:16:46 PST

Firstly, regarding...

Q u o t e:
i admire you for this acknowledgment and standing corrected

...and many similar quotes. I would like to say that I do not think that it takes courage to admit when one is wrong, but rather it takes sheer stupidity to stick to your opinions when they have been proven wrong. It's nice that you are nice to me, but I haven't actually done anything yet :)

A lot of the time we Community folks don't have much more information than what you have, simply because we tell you everything that we do know. Often, you guys will know more than we do because you have time to test it on the PTRs - when I'm working I don't have that luxury, and when I get home at night I quite selfishly play the game for myself and my guild's progression. :)

Q u o t e:
the BURST damage nerf is even worse

I see a lot of discussion on the forums and one thing that has been made more and more clear to me is that each class has issues that they feel are a terrible injustice to them.

For example, we have people saying that one spec that they use for PvP is no good for PvE and if they spec for PvE, they're not as good at PvP. This may seem obvious to me, but for someone so deeply invested in their character and dedicated to every change that has happened to it since launch, it can be very easy to forget about the bigger picture and get stuck on the numbers.

When a screw in your clock starts to rattle, you can tighten it. However, a rattling screw does not affect the function of the clock; it will still tell you the time. If the person who made the screw knew that it was rattling, he might care a little more about it than the clockmaker who will have to dismantle and reassemble the clock for such a small issue.
(See I can do philosophy as well as mathematics!)

Maybe the burst damage was the reason for the change (note: "maybe", I don't read minds and reasons for changes are not always communicated) and maybe you have another talent configuration that will be 'better' for PvP and burst damage...
"...but why should I be bound to one talent configuration for each role?! I am a hybrid?!" I hear you cry!
Well, if you could do everything regardless of your talent points, why would you need to have talent points in the first place...?

Q u o t e:
To Tharfor (or Salthem, or any other CMs) - I hope you are starting to see why this is a bad nerf for us. I hope the theory is clear now. If not I will explain until it is.

I have to admit, doubt does enter my mind on a regular basis as I read these forums. I have rather a lot of blind faith in the development of this game simply because no matter how much people have screamed and shouted about some of the things in the past, it's always turned out fine according to the 'top-secret-master-plan'.

However, the fact that I have these doubts does not mean I am an unreasonable person. In fact, it would have been very easy for me just to make my original post something like "Blue tagging this because it's a good discussion thread. Carry on."

Back on topic:
I would like to repeat one of my original comments in this thread: "I promise nothing more at this time than that I will read what you have to say".
I wish I could tell you that I would hand deliver your concerns to the development office and not leave until they are acknowledged, but that's just not how things work I'm afraid. :(

I am compiling your points, as I have done for other classes in the past, but that is all I can say for certain at this time.

"I love you, but we only have fourteen hours to save the Earth!"

Stasia

Balnazzar

232. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:33:42 PST

Thank you for keeping it so "short" (duh)! You manged to keep talking around the issue for 30 sentences!?!?

I played a paladin from the start of WoW, to BC launch, I enjoyed being a healer - but had enough by then! Decided to roll Shaman, to become Elemental, to try being a caster, and try one of the classes I've never played. Now I realise that was my biggest mistake, I have ever made. Blizzard do not realise, that people play this game to have FUN, and as stupid as we are, we PAY for it.!

So either you start "fixing" your "mistakes" or people like me, will seriously decide to look else where, for the fun we want in our lifes.

I just have one thing to say: POST SOMETHING OF VALUE OR DON'T POST AT ALL!
(Yes I know, this post has no value at all)

[ Post edited by Stasia ]

Remember to take everything in consideration, even the viability of Elemental Shaman's!

Bovvyne

< Equilibrium XII >

Aszune

233. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:34:42 PST

to be honest, it nice to have some dialogue, but my hopes are not high. We have had this before and seen thing ignored or not even forwarded to the devs in the past (note i not saying this about you:), and as you say it isnt your fault it the communication from the devs) .
At the moment i find shaman not as fun as they where, specially in pvp where i can get cc`d far to easily despite some classes claiming grounding totem will protect us against everything.

For me its simple, and to seems so for alot of shaman as it is now the least played class, thats for good reason, shaman at top level is losing its fun factor. For me when my alt gets to 70, and some ok gear this char will become the alt. Unless some real changes happen for shaman.

That is the bottom line.

[ Post edited by Bovvyne ]

Kavio

< FIN >

Chromaggus

234. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:35:24 PST

So much blue text for nothing.. Oh well, nothing new on that front Im afraid.

And about your comment on PvP/PvE spec, you do realise that difference between our specs, and example rogues, is quite big? And by quite big I mean that they are totally different. Not only do we need to totally change our playstyle, we also need new set of gear. I don't see people handing over extra loot for us so we can PvP. And all that wasted bag space..

Edit: Oh, and dancing kitty ain't that cute anymore -.-

[ Post edited by Kavio ]

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/shaman4.jpg
We? Hybrids again?

Steaua

< Lava Waves >

Ravenholdt

235. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:46:16 PST

let's put it like this.... because i can see that you are the only one who reasons in here.... if we... the elemental shamans are not happy with the change (because i just tested on ptr and a mage of same lvl killed me in one fireball... 1 hit... end of game) why change us... is that hard not to change one skill...

for us to understandt what are u guys doing we need reasons... has BLIZZARD ever tryed to explain why do they change what they change in a patch??? i guess not... you explained that on the long run like 100 bolts or CL casted we get advantage... i say ok... but in a bg i must cast like 3CL to kill someone now... now do you think that a long term advantage is anywhere usefull in a game where almost all other classes can kill you in 2 hits ??? i see this change only for killing a boss in a raid... and that is about it because u spawn more LO than the 5%.. but that is all.. so elemental shammys can be used just for that... the ideea is that whouldn't be bad if U, the BLIZZARD TEAM, whould be more versatile and help us with answers... i am more happy if i get an answer like"YEAH I NERFED U GUYS ON DMG BECAUSE ONE TEAM MEMEBER ,THAT NEVER PLAYED SHAMAN BEFORE , PLAYED YESTERDAY AND BELIVED U ARE IMBA WHEN 5 OUT OF 100 CASTS GET'S DOUBLE DMG" than u guys throwing us this patch and saying u are "BUFFING" elemental shaman; maybe you guys do not realise now but we are linked togheter from the point of view of a buyer and seller... if one of those 2 get hurt the relation get's hurt... maybe will be a long time LO betwen this 2 parts... i know that there are lots of elemental shamans that aren't felling so good because i didn't saw any patch in wich we got "buffed" ... never ever... whas it that bad that 5 out of 100 casts we could break the barrier of 5k dmg? i just saw a DUEL on PTR 2.3 betwen a mage and a shaman .. elemental one full merciless both.... mage castd 2 spells and the shaman was down.... the shaman did an incredible 3.4k cl+1.3k dmg befor he died... now thx for buffing.....

we will get extinct... i am just wondering whould it be to hard for the BLIZZARD team to let us chose wich version of elemental tree we want???.. they can create an ingame button just for this... like max 20 lines of code... i really was w8ing for this patch from the day i saw what it changed but the way is turning i hope that it never get's released.... i really hope u guys think about this because as you can see even non shaman players are pointing out that elemental shamans are going extinct.... thank you for listening

THX in advance .....

.

MUAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dracodion

< The Iron Hearts >

Anub'arak

236. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:48:19 PST

Now all shamans try to explain why Elemental speccing is nerfed in PVP and PVE and you answer that not every spec is vieable to everything?

So please look deeper into the posts some are very clear and constructive.
I totally understand you doubts and doubt is important to avoid believe in all theories but here we have an often tested fact.

It will not care me too much since I am not even 70 so i'll never feel it as a nerve but you cannot see numbercrunching subjective.
Find flaws and numbercrunching is corrected but don't say it is subjective.

So after all why let shamans loose approximately 5% damage in PVP and PVE?

Redwolf

< Ruin >

Outland

237. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:49:19 PST

So what you're telling us is you've studied the issue and even though it's gamebreaking for many players the patch will still go live next week with this nerf in place. Why is it always the same for Shamans? Has nothing been learn at all from our "class review" before TBC? This is frankly disgusting customer service, 15% of your player base have been waiting for over 2 years for you to fix the Shaman class and since then half of them have rerolled or quit.

Shaman - The Joke of All Trades

Ronan

< Eternals >

Ghostlands

238. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:55:51 PST

Q u o t e:
Now all shamans try to explain why Elemental speccing is nerfed in PVP and PVE and you answer that not every spec is viable to everything?

QFT

the issue has and always will be that this completely destorys any advantage we have in pvp AND gimps us in pve

this is not us crying out that because we are hybrids and we should do everything

the elemental shamans are not crying out because they cant heal

the resto shamans are not crying out because they cant dps

were crying out because this spec being nerfed to the point of being able to do nothing

I was on the edge of retiring my shaman - holding on to the hope that something positive would arise from this discussion.. that the devs would come to their senses

Sadly no, and so that was the last nail in the coffin.

Elduron

< The Batcountry Raide… >

Bronzebeard

239. Re: 2.3 Ele Changes - Final Attempt at Feedba 07/11/2007 11:56:05 PST

Why don't you pick up the phone and go ask the development team. You make it sound like they are some mysterious entity that no ones knows anything about and never question their decisions. You almost sound as if you are scared of them or something.

Get some proper communication going instead of not actually posting anything useful. People see the Blue name and they get all excited, only to find its the moneky not the organ grinder they are talking to. (no offence)

I want to start playing my shaman again, but its so damn boring and underpowered compared to other classes in PVP I doubt I ever will at the rate Blizzard does things.

Forum > Classes > Shaman