We've decided to let me try out hemo come the 2.3, our rogue CL expected me full math with a good build setup, so here's my build and setup to those who were wondering about hemo's raid potential.

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emo changes:

Damage done is %125
Physical damage done is 36
Charges reduced to 10

I came up with this build for raid:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboZ0eV0bVzxMZxrjo0hoo

It trades SS for Hemo so no SS boosting talents. Lack of Combat Potency is somewhat balanced out with hemo's redoced cost. So it only loses AR from the Combat tree, really.

Main finishers: SnD, Rupture (Serrated Blades + Mangle gives much more consistent and higher damage than Envenom without talents / Evis with all talents)

Taking Merciless Gladiator's Slicer with a 1400 AP rogue for example:

460 - 560 damage white

SS:
100 more damage with SS (560 - 660)
%16 damage with talents (650 - 770)

Hemo:
36 more damage with hemo debuff (500 - 600)
%125 of weapon damage (625 - 750)

With each 8 Hemo attacks, you make 7 SS attacks:

SS damage in total: 4550 - 5390
Hemo damage in total: 5000 - 6000

Single hemos hit for slightly lower, but in the long run it does more damage than SS.

So what you lose without full 41 point in combat is: AR and no dodge on finishers. AR is solved with (somewhat) prem, no dodge on finishers is the only weak point.

This all, summed up with +36 physical damage.

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5 minute fight = 300 seconds = 3000 energy

= 75 SS (48750-57750 damage)
= 85 Hemo (53125-63750)

2.6 speed weapon MH - 1.5 speed weapon OH, SnD up
151 MH attacks, 260 OH Attacks, 410 attacks in total

= 50 Combat potency (750 energy, 18 SS, 13000-15000)
= 410 Hemo charges used (15000)

In total:

SS: 72750 (high end potential)
Hemo: 78750 (high end potential)

Hemo self buff + weapon damage deals %8 more damage than specced SS.

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Math doesn't include SS - Hemo criticals (Favours over SS) or Windfury procs / Trinkets (which heavily favours hemo). That would over complicate the math imo.

As you can see, Hemo looks a little better on the paper for rogue's personal DPS, but it's also a great boost to everyone else (An example of a mutilate rogue gaining 80 more damage on a hemoed target, any fury war - rogue - shaman enjoying +36 damage)

Source on hemo changes www.worldofraids.com

I hope this helps anyone.

Some small adjustments you might like. The build you posted is closest to the highest dps hemo spec for 2.3, but some of your talents are still more for doing low-bracket-pvp on the side.
The total of my suggestions won't increase your DPS more then maybe 0.5%, maybe even less, so you can ignore them if you are interested in PvP on the side.

1) Put the 5 points you have in MoD into Opportunity instead. Garrote is a very good low-agro opener.
2) Take 2 points out of Camouflage, and put them into either Elusiveness or Setup instead. I personally like Setup, since we have Prep anyway, but some prefer Elusiveness.
3) This one is very depending on gear, and even then still subject to debate, but you might want to move 1 point from Sword Specialization to Dirty Deeds. But as I said, that's something that some people do, others consider, and yet to others would sound like blasphemy.

Heya,

Yeah, I chose MoD because I don't think Garrote has such a huge impact on bosses anyway, and MoD will always gi you more room in 5-mans so it was a no brainer.

I was thinking of dirty deeds as well. Well try to squeeze it in.

5/5 is a must in oppourtunity imo too...Garrote is your only opener in a raid enviroment, ticks away nicely...and 75% of the time you will be getting 2 combo points for it from iniative too.

bump

lookin good, I'm gonna give it a try next week :)

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Q u o t e:


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emo changes:

Damage done is %125
Physical damage done is 36
Charges reduced to 10

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I lol'd. And think I'll stay with Combat spec. AR <3

Personally I think the new dirty deeds is a must in any "raid-hemo build" as it provides an INSANE damage boost for only 2 measly points. Further I don't consider preparation neccessary for a raid hemo build as you don't have AR anyway. So I'd rather invest that point in something that helps boost my dps instead. As for MoD and Camoflage I agree that these talents are kinda useless in a raid setting but how often do you garrote a raidboss?

The dps you loose by sneaking up to your target is probably more than the dps you make if you run in like the warriors unstealthed and start wacking away, unless you know the encounter perfectly and you are able to position yourself as close to the boss so you can get a garrotte of 1 second after the MT lands his first blow).

My hemo raid build would probably look like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebZ0eV0bVzxMZxre00hMo

10/28/23 - I don't know it this is a new cookie cutter or anything but it looks damn nice for hemo raid damage!

Alternatively you could drop 5 points in assassination and only go for malice there while picking up Ar from combat. But I'm not sure if this would gimp you over a long fight as both murder and ruthlessness provide a stable dps increase. However popping AR when the mobb is below 35 % hps will probably provide some NASTY burst equal to a warriors execute + recklessness for about 15 s. If this proves the case I will prolly go something in the lines of:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xoZ0eVbbVzxM0oZxre00hRo - 6/31/24

Indeed 5/5 opportunity is a must, don't forget you will be able to garrote 3/4 or sometimes 5 times per boss.

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Q u o t e:

My hemo raid build would probably look like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebZ0eV0bVzxMZxre00hMo

10/28/23 - I don't know it this is a new cookie cutter or anything but it looks damn nice for hemo raid damage!

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Relentless is a MUST in any raid situation, you'd be stupid not to take it, and very stupid to take 2/2 weapon expertise over relentless and prep. Again, this build needs 5/5 opportunity.

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Q u o t e:
Personally I think the new dirty deeds is a must in any "raid-hemo build" as it provides an INSANE damage boost for only 2 measly points. Further I don't consider preparation neccessary for a raid hemo build as you don't have AR anyway. So I'd rather invest that point in something that helps boost my dps instead. As for MoD and Camoflage I agree that these talents are kinda useless in a raid setting but how often do you garrote a raidboss?

The dps you loose by sneaking up to your target is probably more than the dps you make if you run in like the warriors unstealthed and start wacking away, unless you know the encounter perfectly and you are able to position yourself as close to the boss so you can get a garrotte of 1 second after the MT lands his first blow).

My hemo raid build would probably look like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebZ0eV0bVzxMZxre00hMo

10/28/23 - I don't know it this is a new cookie cutter or anything but it looks damn nice for hemo raid damage!

Alternatively you could drop 5 points in assassination and only go for malice there while picking up Ar from combat. But I'm not sure if this would gimp you over a long fight as both murder and ruthlessness provide a stable dps increase. However popping AR when the mobb is below 35 % hps will probably provide some NASTY burst equal to a warriors execute + recklessness for about 15 s. If this proves the case I will prolly go something in the lines of:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xoZ0eVbbVzxM0oZxre00hRo - 6/31/24

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Raid builds of any sort without relentless strikes makes baby jesus cry.

Ye I would prolly take 1 point from weapon expertise to relentless now that I think about it. As for oppertunity that might do some extra damage aswell now that you mention the fact that we do indeed vanish atleast 2-3 times per bossfight.

Changing my build it would then be something like:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboZ0eV0bVzxzZVre00hMo - 11/27/23

Well it seems really nice but you've missed one thing, and thats a big deal for anyone that is thinking of respeccing hemo for raiding.
Crits, you didn't do any calcs on that (as you've said) but when you specc hemo for raiding you cant afford the 5 talentpoints in Lethality without gimp your damage.
Which means 30%(!) more crit damage, without this in a hemo specc vs a combat specc with this I dont think that would be better then the 19/42 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboxZMIV0rVzxMGot).
Since in raid you got 30%+ crit when buffed, and all this ~30% times you hit your enemy you'll deal 30% more damage then with a hemo specc.

And you get 2% (yeah I know it's silly but still a boost) more agi, which in the long end will give more damage.

So I'll still stick with the combat specc when 2.3 comes out, maybe though I'll try Hemo out in some PvP.
Over and out, the little Gnome helper.

Edit: And I'm level 70 though it says level 60... :(

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Q u o t e:
Indeed 5/5 opportunity is a must, don't forget you will be able to garrote 3/4 or sometimes 5 times per boss.

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wait what? .. you use 2/3 and sometimes 4 vanish per fight? ... -1 for the first opener you get..

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Q u o t e:
Well it seems really nice but you've missed one thing, and thats a big deal for anyone that is thinking of respeccing hemo for raiding.
Crits, you didn't do any calcs on that (as you've said) but when you specc hemo for raiding you cant afford the 5 talentpoints in Lethality without gimp your damage.
Which means 30%(!) more crit damage, without this in a hemo specc vs a combat specc with this I dont think that would be better then the 19/42 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboxZMIV0rVzxMGot).
Since in raid you got 30%+ crit when buffed, and all this ~30% times you hit your enemy you'll deal 30% more damage then with a hemo specc.

And you get 2% (yeah I know it's silly but still a boost) more agi, which in the long end will give more damage.

So I'll still stick with the combat specc when 2.3 comes out, maybe though I'll try Hemo out in some PvP.
Over and out, the little Gnome helper.

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Lethality is bad.
With a trispec you get serrated blades, which is not bad, but is in fact pretty amazing.
Amazing > bad.

The new DD is superior to expertise imo. You find expertise rating on SSC loot anyway, and the DD is like a mini-execute on bosses.

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Q u o t e:


wait what? .. you use 2/3 and sometimes 4 vanish per fight? ... -1 for the first opener you get..

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Maybe I was a bit hasty there, but is using garrote (when vanish and prem allow it) with 5/5 opportunity against a mangled opponent better damage than just using the energy on 1 and a bit hemo's?

I'd drop 2 weapon expertise and take 2/2 dirty deeds imo, since next patch it's buffed to targets below -35% hp, all specials increased by 20% damage.

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Q u o t e:
Well it seems really nice but you've missed one thing, and thats a big deal for anyone that is thinking of respeccing hemo for raiding.
Crits, you didn't do any calcs on that (as you've said) but when you specc hemo for raiding you cant afford the 5 talentpoints in Lethality without gimp your damage.
Which means 30%(!) more crit damage, without this in a hemo specc vs a combat specc with this I dont think that would be better then the 19/42 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboxZMIV0rVzxMGot).
Since in raid you got 30%+ crit when buffed, and all this ~30% times you hit your enemy you'll deal 30% more damage then with a hemo specc.

And you get 2% (yeah I know it's silly but still a boost) more agi, which in the long end will give more damage.

So I'll still stick with the combat specc when 2.3 comes out, maybe though I'll try Hemo out in some PvP.
Over and out, the little Gnome helper.

Edit: And I'm level 70 though it says level 60... :(

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You got a point, however..
With hemo you will always do 20% more damg when the mob/boss is below 35% hp. During that time you can make up, and if i need to believe the math from the op( i do), even outrun a lot of damage you lost because of the "lack" of crit power.

Now for a question of my own:
Because Hemo does 125% weapon damage, and does not add a fixed amount of damage as SS, wont Hemo be a realy good choice if you got your hands on some high end game weapons?( the glaives for example). Or will the fixed added damg to SS still compensate for the +25%?

No matter what, i will definitly try out a hemo pve spec the moment it comes out, picking up the S1 slicer for the honor points and i will give it a try. The numbers in the math the op used are so close to the situation i will find my self in if i spec hemo and the stats on the skill will remain the same, that i basicly got a clear overview here about how my damage will be :) So thanks OP!