I wrote a fairly long post about why one stat is superior to another when it comes to both mana regeneration and throughput, in another thread. I got the following response from Mr Ackbarspiff.

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Q u o t e:

Applaud.
This is the most comprehensive well written comparison of the important paladin stats i have seen for a long time.
Actually its a shame that you posted it in this thread as the OP is clearly a troll.
This deserves a thread of its own as its actually quite useful when you have to figure out what stats to go for.
You should consider making a seperat thread with this information.

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First of all I'd like to thank him for those nice words. Thank you!

Clearly I've also taken him up on his suggestion and I'm posting the information in a new thread.
I have adjusted it slightly to take away the thread-specifics from the other post I made and I've added a little bit of information.

Now, I would ask that if you do have comments or critisisms that you do keep it constructive. Anything else will only get us here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
...or in other words filled with abuse, contradiction and irrelevancy.


Walkthrough of the important Holy Paladin Stats for both Mana regeneration and Throughput.


Mana regeneration Stats

For the Holy Paladin mana regeneration while casting is affected by three stats. Intellect, Mp5 and Crit rating. Let's do an itempoint comparison to see what you get from each stat.

Intellect:

100 itempoints of Intellect will give you in terms of mana (with kings):

1815 initlal mana and increase to your max level.
37.81 Mp5 worth of Mana from Divine Plea (on cooldown)
18.15 Mp5 worth of Mana from Divine Plea (used once per 2 minutes)
16.3 Mp5 worth of mana from Replenishment (90% uptime)
0.72% Crit rating
24 spellpower

Additionally these are possible
7.56 Mp5 from Mana Tide Totem, on CD per Shaman
18.15 Mp5 from Revitalize (Maximum Average, 100% WG and Rejuvination)
4.54 Mp5 from Arcane Torrent on CD (if you're a blood elf)
72.6 Extra mana per Seal of Wisdom proc.

The mana from Crit will depend on your casting model. This is per minute scenarios.

A: 40 HL
B: 30 HL + 14 FoL
C: 20 HL + 25 FoL + 2 HS
D: 10 HL + 30 FoL + 10 HS
E: 0 HL + 44 FoL + 10 HS

To start with, these scenarios assume you're at the Haste soft-cap and that you're keeping up beacon, judgement and SS. (If you're not at the Haste soft cap you'll be casting less than this and the value of crit will go down further)

The Value of Crit in terms of Mp5 for these Scenarios:
A: 9.1 Mp5
B: 7.6 Mp5
C: 6.2 Mp5
D: 5.4 Mp5
E: 3.9 Mp5

So in total: 100 itempoints of Intellect is worth: 1815 initial mana + 24 SP + 36 - 93.5 Mp5 + 72.6 extra mana per SoW proc.


Crit Rating:

Ok, so lets look at Crit rating. For the same amount of 100 itempoints we get 2.17% crit.
Using the four scenarios I already detailed under intellect that gives us:

A: 27.5 Mp5
B: 22.9 Mp5
C: 18.7 Mp5
D: 16.3 Mp5
E: 11.6 Mp5

So in total: 100 itempoints of Crit rating is worth: 11.6-27.5 Mp5 worth of mana returns.

But I remind you that this is at the Haste soft cap. Without any haste at all you would be casting 20.6% fewer heals and it would decrease the value of crit down to 9.2 - 21.8 Mp5


Mp5:

Mp5 doesn't require any complicated models or anything. For 100 itempoints you get 50 Mp5.


Mana Regeneration Stat Summary

If we bring that together you get for 100 itempoints spent on:

Intellect: 1815 initial mana + 24 SP + 36 - 93.5 Mp5 + 72.6 extra mana per SoW proc.
Mp5: 50Mp5
Crit rating at 676 Haste: 11.6 - 27.5 Mp5
Crit rating at 0 Haste: 9.2 - 21.8 Mp5

So it's obvious that Intellect here has the largest potential for mana returns, with Crit being the least interresting.




Throughput Stats

The throughput stats for a Holy Paladin is Haste, Crit Rating and Spellpower. To examine the values of these stats we need a Test dummy, a generic holy Paladin.

With raidbuffs naked a Holy Paladin will end up at about 18% Crit. Since we get intellect on all our gear as long as you're not naked you will have more crit than that. With Intellect from gear and no crit rating you'll end up between 20 and 25% Crit. Let's assume 22% as an average value.

Let us furthermore assume that whatever gear he is wearing will net him 2200 sp raidbuffed.
Beyond this the generic Paladin has zero haste. All other stats are irrelevant to this comparison.

Let us furthermore assume that he has only specced down the Holy tree. The additional crit in the retri tree and the extra healing from Divinity in prot tree etc. is not limited by what stat you prefer. You can spec into them regardless and because of that we'll ignore them.


A lot of Holy Paladins attemt to get and surpass the Haste soft cap so let's use that point as a basis for our comparison. To get the soft cap you'll need 676 Haste. If the itempoints were spent on Crit rating would give you 14.67% Crit. If you spent it on additional spellpower it would net you 811 more.

Thus the Haste and Spellpower focused Paladins will have the following crit amounts:
FoL: 22%
HL & HS: 28%

While the Crit Paladin will get:
FoL: 36.7%
HL & HS: 42.67%

To determine just how much throughput you'll be able to achieve with this you need to know the size of the heals for each Paladin. Note that I am applying the crit rating directly into the size of the average heal.

That means each spell the average heal is:

Haste Holy Light: 12004
Crit Holy Light: 12777
SP Holy Light: 13853

Haste Flash of Light: 4025
Crit Flash of Light: 4291
SP Flash of Light: 5105

Haste Holy Shock: 5790
Crit Holy Shock: 6163
SP Holy Shock: 6677

Now we just have to know how often you can cast the spells.

Cast times
HL with Crit / SP: 1.68s
HL with Haste: 1.33s
FoL with Crit / SP: 1.26s
FoL with Haste: 1.0s

Keeping up Beacon, Judgement and SS will take 6 GCD per minute or 6s for the Haste paladin and 9s for the Crit and SP Paladin. That will have to be deducted from the avilable time for casting actual heals.

For one minute of casting, how many heals can be achieved?

Holy Light:
Haste Paladin: 40
Crit Paladin: 30

Flash of Light:
Haste Paladin: 54
Crit Paladin: 40

Holy Shock: It's obviously limited to the cooldown, so all builds will at best get 10 per minute,

These numbers are of course assuming that no cast is in conflict with keeping up Beacon, SS or Judgement. Furthermore since we're assuming that we keep up SS, we might as well assume maximum FoL Hot use (which is 5 per minute), assuming you're casting FoL at all.

So for straight up spam one minute of casting will yield the paladins the following amount of Raw Healing.

Holy Light:
Haste Paladin: 480 160
Crit Paladin: 383 310
SP Paladin: 415 590

Flash of Light:
Haste Paladin: 217 350 + 20 125 (FoL HoT) = 237 475
Crit Paladin: 171 640 + 21 455 = 193 095
SP Paladin: 204 200 + 25 525 = 229 725

Holy Shock:
Haste Paladin: 57 900
Crit Paladin: 61 630
SP Paladin: 66 770

So as you can see.. the Haste Paladin has the capability of doing more healing than both the Crit Paladin and the Spellpower Paladin and by a fairly large amount at that. The only spells where the crit or sp paladin will do more with is for Holy Shock and the FoL HoT but they are both limited use.

Any combination of spellchoices for healing will give you more throughput using Haste rather than the other two stats in an itempoint comparison.


There is another consideration to make. Once the Haste Paladin has reached the soft-cap he will have peaked his output on Flash of Light. There is no way for him to get any more healing without getting other stats.

Getting more haste will however still give more healing for Holy Light. Just for comparison let's see what the raw healing achievable will become if you're able to double the amounts of Haste / Crit and SP that the Generic Paladin had above. It would mean that the Haste Paladin would have a HL casttime of 1.10s, allowing 49 casts, rather than 40. The Crit Paladin will get another 14.67% and the SP Paladin another 811 spellpower.

Holy Light:
2x Haste Paladin: 588 196
2x Crit Paladin: 404 880
2x SP Paladin: 471 030

Flash of Light:
2x Haste Paladin: 217 350 + 20 125 (FoL HoT) = 237 475
2x Crit Paladin: 180 560 + 22 570 = 203 130
2x SP Paladin: 247 400 + 30 925 = 278 325

Holy Shock:
2x Haste Paladin: 57 900
2x Crit Paladin: 65 100
2x SP Paladin: 75 640

What's notable is that for Holy Light the Haste Paladin pulls away and increase the gap to the other two. 25.3% lead to 45.3% when compared with Crit and 15.5% lead to a 24.9% lead compared with Spellpower.

As we know the Haste Paladin was already peaked for Flash of Light, but even with twice the amount of itempoints Crit rating can't overtake. The Spellpower Paladin will however do so by a fair amount.

By that I would conclude that up to the Haste cap you will benefit more by focusing on Haste rather than Spellpower or Crit. Beyond the Haste cap however it will depend on how you're casting. If you're predominantly casting Holy Light then stick to Haste, otherwise Spellpower might be worth considering.

I hope you've had a good read.


Disclaimer:
If I've made any calculation errors anywhere that will affect the result, please let me know and I will have a look at it.

TLDR Summary:

Mana returns for 100 itempoints spent on:
Intellect: 1815 initial mana + 24 SP + 36 - 93.5 Mp5 + 72.6 extra mana per SoW proc.
Mp5: 50Mp5
Crit rating at 676 Haste: 11.6 - 27.5 Mp5
Crit rating at 0 Haste: 9.2 - 21.8 Mp5


Throughput achievable for a 2200sp Paladin spending itempoints on 676 Haste or 14.67% Crit or 811 spellpower, while keeping up Beacon, SS and Judgement.

1min Holy Light spam:
Haste Paladin: 480 160
Crit Paladin: 383 310
SP Paladin: 415 590

1min Flash of Light spam:
Haste Paladin: 237 475
Crit Paladin: 193 095
SP Paladin: 229 725

1min Holy Shock (cooldown limited):
Haste Paladin: 57 900
Crit Paladin: 61 630
SP Paladin: 66 770

Clearly Haste is the superior stat.

At this point Haste has reached it's peak for Flash of Light since the casting time can't be reduced further. If you assume twice the amount of itempoints spent on each stat in the above calculation you will find that for Holy Light will pull away. 25.3% lead compared with Crit increase to 45.3% lead and a 15.5% lead to Spellpower increase to a 24.9% lead. For Flash of Light the situation is naturally different.
FoL:
2x Haste Paladin: 237 475 (same as before)
2x Crit Paladin: 203 130
2x SP Paladin: 278 325

Crit still can't overtake Haste, but Spellpower is clearly better for Flash of Light.

I remember this. Was this from that thread with the guy that counted int twice on int gems?

Either way, I'll have to give this a more thorough read at some point. Guess I should be trying more to get that Haste softcap.

Very interesting theorycrafting!

Assuming a 5 minute fight, 100 iPoints' worth of Intellect gives you just about 30 MAFSOA5MF (Mana Available For Spending Over A 5 Minute Fight) and can, over a 5 min fight, be assumed to be the equivalent of 30 Mp5.

This further enhances the argument that there's never a good reason to gem for Mp5 (or gear for it, unless the other stats on the item are better) if it's possible to get an item with similar stats but the same amount of iPoints spent on Intellect.

Yeah some very useful information right there for any paladin that are unsure what stats to focus on.

/sticky

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Q u o t e:
/sticky

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Yes, please!

Thank-you Shiria for all of your insightful posts. These should be the first posts new healers see when visiting these forums, unlike other very unhelpful ones that are lurking around at the moment.

Just want to drop by and link to a post I wrote in a different thread, where I point out the exact benefits of 4 quite easily obtained trinkets, that might be interesting to a new Holy Paladin.

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=11155531189&sid=1&pageNo=2

As you can see, this comes from an argument with a certain Human Male Holy Paladin on whether Intellect is superior to Mp5 or not.

Let us try to kill the myth about Mp5! Intellect can be mathematically proven to be superior to Mp5.

Thank you all for the praise.

This post was actually made in response to that same stubbornly missinformed Human Paladin some of you referenced.

Halaya, I read your post about the trinkets. Good job.

I've been considering Seal of Wisdom procs and how that translates into mana.

As far as I know Seal of Wisdom do about 15 PPM.
With a 1.8s healing weapon that would be about 45% of the time.
Judging 3-7 times per minute, I'd put an average at around 2 PPM for judgements alone.

If this is valid then this would give us (for the 100 intellect itempoints):

Judging attacks only: ~12 Mp5

Empirically it seems to be between 40 and 45% of melee and judgement melee procs SoW.

If you're chaincasting and queing your casts you should still be able to get through ~6 melee hits per minute (counting three judgements), giving you about three procs per minute while chaincasting or about 18Mp5 for 100 itempoints of intellect.

If you're not chaincasting (or even casting) the absolute maximum for 100 itempoints would be ~90Mp5, but that's highly unrealistic since you wouldn't be able to heal at all.


Is there anyone that can confirm or deny the validity of this?
If you have more accurate information about the proc I would appreciate it.

I'm not 100% sure about this one, but I thought SoW could only proc once in 5 secs... Meaning 12 times a minute.
With my 36k raidbuffed mana pool that's good for an average 3x1500=4500 mana per minute. That's 4500/60*5=375 mp5

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Q u o t e:
I'm not 100% sure about this one, but I thought SoW could only proc once in 5 secs... Meaning 12 times a minute.
With my 36k raidbuffed mana pool that's good for an average 3x1500=4500 mana per minute. That's 4500/60*5=375 mp5

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Well, no, there isn't any limit like that.
I did a bit of searching and it seems that the PPM for Seal of Wisdom is usually between 10 and 15. So 12 is probably a better average to use, rather than the 15 I assumed at first.

If we assume 12 PPM that would mean 12 / (60 / 1.8) = 36% procchance for a 1.8 speed weapon.

Empirically I have these numbers from a recent log.
Hits: 196 (55 of them from judgements)
Procs: 85

Which means that for 196 hits, with the 12 PPM, I should get 70-71 procs. 85 is about 14 PPM.

This information might be slightly off though since I haven't actually taken Haste into account.
My haste decrease my weaponspeed to 1.41 so I will get a chance for more PPM even though the procchance stays the same.

55 x 0.36 = ~20
Which leaves 65 procs affected by weaponspeed.

(196 - 55 ) x 0.36 = ~51 procs with 12PPM and a 1.8 weapon.

Adjust for the Hasted weaponspeed and we get:

51 / (1.41 / 1.8) = ~65

And that is the number achieved empirically.

So I can confirm that 36% (12PPM) is a good average for the procrate of SoW. There is however no five second limit to how often it can proc and you may effectively see numbers up towards 15 PPM.



For 100 itempoints of Intellect this would give us:
1 judgement/min (keeping up JotP) = 0.36 ePPM = ~2.2 Mp5
3 judgement/min (keeping up the judgement effect) = 1.08 ePPM = ~6.5 Mp5
6 judgement/min (on cd untalented) = 2.16 ePPM = ~13.1 Mp5
7.5 judgement/min (on cd talented) = 2.7 ePPM = ~16.3 Mp5

The problem is if you wish to evaluate how many melee hits we might achieve in excess of the judgements we do and how much Mp5 the SoW would translate into then.

Based on my own empirical data I was able to achieve about 4.2 melee hits per minute, while chaincasting (and queing) so only spell transitions would allow melee hits. That would roughly translate into ~9.1 Mp5 at the Haste soft cap. If you're not casting at all (due to some fight mechanic) you should be able to achieve ~93 Mp5 at the Haste soft cap for every 100 itempoints of intellect.


Let's take your mana amount Gold, 36k buffed, or about 24 increments of 100 itempoints in intellect.

3 judge/min: ~156 Mp5
6 judge/min: ~314 Mp5
Melee while casting at soft haste cap: ~218 Mp5
Total: ~374-532 Mp5 from SoW procs in Melee range while chaincasting.

Top potential: 2232 Mp5

@ Goldheart:

It's a PPM, it doesn't really work like that. You can get 100 procs in a row and then go on with 400 hits and not a single proc. That is, of course, highly unlikely, but theoretically possible.

PPM (Proc per Minute) assumes the average amount of procs you should get if auto-attacking for 1 minute, and gives you a proc chance based on that. It's based on the base speed of your weapon.

@ Shiria:

Your analysis of Seal / Judgement of Wisdom is very interesting, but one must remember that it's very unreliable, in difference to most other mana regeneration effects. This is due to limits imposed by the lack of opportunity on certain fights.

Further, in order to remain in melee range, you might have to move, interrupting your healing. On harder fights this is NOT an alternative, due to the amount of healing needed for the encounter.

I would collect all reliable mana sources and calculate that first, then seperately count external effects (Hymn of Hope, Revitalize and Mana Tide Totem, etc). Finally, I would calculate SoW / JoW but keep that seperate since we must always assume a minimum gain to ensure that we don't exaggerate the benefits gained from this, since we are very likely to miss out on them on harder fights where chaincasting is needed.

Do you think you could list a few fights where we are likely to be able to gain mana through SoW / JoW, other than the 1 JoW per Minute? I could possibly imagine it being possible on Anub and the last of the Northern Beasts after the crash. However, at this point, mana shouldn't be too much of a problem (possible exception for the Beast).

Oh, and you said that you could get about 4.2 hits (average) despite queing spells. I personally don't think I would be able to reach that number unless suffering from server lag.

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Q u o t e:

Your analysis of Seal / Judgement of Wisdom is very interesting, but one must remember that it's very unreliable, in difference to most other mana regeneration effects. This is due to limits imposed by the lack of opportunity on certain fights.

Further, in order to remain in melee range, you might have to move, interrupting your healing. On harder fights this is NOT an alternative, due to the amount of healing needed for the encounter.

I would collect all reliable mana sources and calculate that first, then seperately count external effects (Hymn of Hope, Revitalize and Mana Tide Totem, etc). Finally, I would calculate SoW / JoW but keep that seperate since we must always assume a minimum gain to ensure that we don't exaggerate the benefits gained from this, since we are very likely to miss out on them on harder fights where chaincasting is needed.

Do you think you could list a few fights where we are likely to be able to gain mana through SoW / JoW, other than the 1 JoW per Minute? I could possibly imagine it being possible on Anub and the last of the Northern Beasts after the crash. However, at this point, mana shouldn't be too much of a problem (possible exception for the Beast).

Oh, and you said that you could get about 4.2 hits (average) despite queing spells. I personally don't think I would be able to reach that number unless suffering from server lag.

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I agree that Seal of Wisdom procs are indeed unreliable since they are dependant on RNG, but it is however a mana source which we can control ourselves, and that gives it more importance than mana tide totem, revitalize, hymn of hope or innervate.

I would say however that it's a more reliable source of mana than you make it appear. It's not any less reliable than the mana we gain from Illumination and it should thus be treated on equal ground and be included. The chance that it will not proc at all for a minute is about half a percent.

How many procs you can get out of SoW will as you say depend on the fight. That is why I was outlining the limits of it, from 1 judge per minute to judging on cooldown while being in melee range.

As for how many Melee hits you might get while chaincasting, it will of course depend. As I see it there is a chance of getting in hits every time you switch from one spell to another, be it a healing spell or something else. If that spell happens to be an instant that incur a GCD, such as Holy Shock for instance then you can pretty much count on getting a free melee hit. It's only for true qued chaincasting of a single spell where you can't expect any SoW procs. The 4.2 is also with haste at the soft cap, but I feel it is a reasonable amount to expect on average.

As for the Judgement effect rather than the Seal effect that one is rather lackluster. 2% of base mana on a 50% procrate on melee hits. That is assuming it's up on your target of course. With the numbers I detailed while being in melee range I would get 5-10 proc opportunities per minute. That translates into 18.3 to 36.7 Mp5 (or half or less if you're not in melee range), while only a single Seal of Wisdom proc per minute for a 36k mana Paladin is 120 Mp5. So given the large difference in effect JoW is one of the first things I skip when calculating mana.


You asked for fights where it's ok to be in melee and when it's not. How often you're able to judge really depends on your guild and how the encounter is going, but generally judging as often as it is safe is a good idéa.

AnubArak: In phase 1 and 3 it is completely safe to stay in melee range.
Twin Val'kyrs: Safe to be in melee range of the bosses. Just run and switch aura when needed due to vortex.
Faction Champions: Too risky to be in melee and a bit too chaotic to maintain it even if you get there.
Lord Jaraxxus: Safe to be in melee most of the time. Might have to dance slightly if any other in melee range get the legion flame (or if you do naturally) but not enough to stay away.
Northrend Beasts: Quite dangerous to be in Melee range. Gormok has a melee range interrupt. You might be able to stop casting to avoid being interrupted, but it's risky. Kiting and melee range aoe damage sources. Icehowl.. has a serious knockback if you're in melee range so the only time it's safe is the seconds whe he's stunned after running into a wall.

Yogg'Saron: Phase1 Meleeing guardians at the door is safe and requires minimal movement. Phase 2 you can melee the corruptor and constrictor tentacles without much issues. Phase 3... you might possibly be in range of a guardian, it depends on your tactic. I would not melee yogg since it leaves you vulnerable.
G.Vezax: SoW can't proc, so it doesn' t matter.
Mimiron: Phase 1... Risky, due to the melee aoe and the mines. Phase 2, just as easy as not being in melee. Phase 3, depend on your tacic with the adds. Phase 4 too risky again for same reason as in phase one.
Freya: Being in melee range of Freya is not a problem except when you need to stay under a mushroom, but if possible stay with the Freya tank and you can continue even then.
Thorim: Extremely Risky due to ground lightning, but if you're attentive you can do it.
Hodir: You can be in melee range, but staying at the fire will help your healing so much more that it's not worth it.
Auiraya: Stick to melee and returned after you've been feared.
Kologarn: He has a melee range interrupt, but there is a small area (difficult to find) where you can get in melee range of one arm but out of range of the interrupt. If you can find that position it's as safe as any place, but if you can't it's too risky.
Iron Council: Melee Range of any boss except Brundir is fine.
XT-002: Pretty safe to be in Melee range. No real change in danger from being further away.
Ignis: It depends on your tactic I suppose, but if you're keeping him static then you can do it safely.
Razorscale: Every time he lands before he is down permanently go ahead and be in melee, once he stays down unchained, don't bother.

Was that what you were after?

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Q u o t e:
Was that what you were after?

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Yes, thank you.

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Q u o t e:
I agree that Seal of Wisdom procs are indeed unreliable since they are dependant on RNG, but it is however a mana source which we can control ourselves, and that gives it more importance than mana tide totem, revitalize, hymn of hope or innervate.

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Yes, but... I'm not sure reliable was the right word. To put it this way, if you know that you'll have Mana Tide / HoH you can ignore them but yet expect them. They are, to you, passive.

Being that the main debate here is to calculate the value of Intellect for mana, it would be useful for all Holydins to be able to calculate their own mana regeneration based on the environment of the encounter, down to their group setup, playstyle etc.

However, if the debate still is about proving Hijaal wrong, I think we've overdone that by now. There is no support what so ever for gemming or gearing Mp5.

In difference to the other classes, a Paladin's mana gained over a fight can be very random, and differ a big deal from fight to fight. That is why calculating a Paladin's mana gain is rather complex, compared to, for instance, that of a Druid or a Shaman.

A list of basic formulas for this is needed, but rather hard to compile due to the complex nature of mana gain.

I personally value intellect on a 0.9 mp5 per intellect basis. On some fights it will be higher, on some fights it would be lower.

What number would you give Intellect, and which sources (and at which frequency) would you count? As an average number, that is.

First about gearing in general. I do agree with you, but what you say must be taken with a grain of salt since it can easily be misunderstood if you don't take in the whole context.

Spellpower and Intellect come on all our gear, with the possible exception of trinkets. So while choosing items you don't really need to consider them, beyond possible gemsockets. What you're really choosing is if you should gear for Haste, Mp5 or Crit. If you need throughput you choose Haste, if you need mana regeneration you choose Mp5. That makes items with Haste and Mp5 superior to other combination of two stats.
It's really only for gems and enchants that we have Intellect and spellpower as additional options. When we do Intellect is top on Regen, but Haste is still better than Spellpower.
For enchants you also have to consider different itempoint budgets and socketbonuses that might tip the scales differently than you'd expect.
This is all fairly obvious to us, but it might be lost in all the data so I thought I'd mention it.

The main debate in this thread however is not how you individually choose to gear, but the relative value of each healing stat so that Paladins may make informed decisions.


You asked me how I value Intellect myself, or in other words which possible mana sources affected by intellect that I take for granted?

This is what I take for granted for 100 itempoints of Intellect:
1815 initial mana pool.
24 spellpower
37.81 Mp5 DP (on CD)
16.3 Mp5 Replenishment (90% uptime)
8.5 Mp5 Illumination (somewhere between scenario A and B in my OP)
6.5 Mp5 SoW (keeping up judgement.)

Or simplified in other words... ~70Mp5 worth of mana regen for every 100 intellect.

I don't count any source that I can't supply myself (save replenishment) because I can't count on them being available. We don't always have each class in the healing team of the evening. When they are available it will lessen any difficulties with mana I might have, but I know that I may have to make due without them the next time. Furthermore, if I do have such a source, then I'll most likely decrease my use of Divine Plea in return to avoid the healing penalty. Same for allowing more SoW procs.. it allows me to be more conservative with DP.

Ah, but what I was more interested in was to provide quite simple evidence for "Intellect beats Mp5" so that we can help people who are new to the class.

Since we have a certain Human Male Holy Paladin spreading lies, encouraging people who might not know a lot about Holydins (or healing in general) to even gem for Mp5 I think it's quite important to be able to supply the proper evidence.

As for why I talked about gearing, I meant trinkets, gems and enchants.

Oh, and thanks for your list there! Given that you can count MAS (Mana Available for Spending) as Mana Regen, it reaches an even higher number.

To calculate MAS per 5:

([Mana gained from the intellect] / 12) / [Fight length in Minutes]

For a 5 min fight, 100 intellect gives 30 MAS per 5, meaning that in a 5 min fight, 100 more intellect means that you can spend 100 more mana per 5 seconds before going out of mana.

This means we can expect Intellect to be at least twice as good as Mp5 (since Mp5 is twice as expensive) before even considering extra SoW / JoW procs and external mana regeneration effects.

All in all a very good thread, Shiria, but my posts here were mainly focused on the value of Intellect.

Reported for sticky, nice job, Shiria :)

That which you call MAS, I've always called "Fight mana", or in other word the sum or all mana sources through the course of a fight.

You're right that you can translate the initial mana into an Mp5 value if you know the length of the fight. It will naturally decrease as the fight grows longer. I do however think that if you're going to do this you need to present it as an increment between common fight lengths, and not based on a static length.

I feel that the majority of fights fall within the 3 to 12 minute rule. Even though I've personally had fights last as long as 23min 20s in WotLK (My first 25-man Faction champion kill). Longer fights used to be common but are exceptions today and usually indicative that something wasn't performed the way it should have been.

For 100 itempoints of intellect, the initial mana pool for a 3 to 12 min fight would in Mp5 be:

3min : 50.4 Mp5 - 12.6 Mp5 : 12min
Just to cover extremes...
1min: 151.3 Mp5 - 6.1 Mp5 : 25min

Because of the large variation in Mp5 for different lengths I find it better to not do this conversion and rather keep it as initial mana. In terms of proving Intellect superior to Mp5, then yes I would agree it's a means to an end.

100 itempoints of Intellect:
1815 initial mana + 70 Mp5 ("reliable" sources) + 0-30 Mp5 (situational sources)

of if you'd like.
151.3 - 6.1 Mp5 inital mana + 70 Mp5 ("reliable" sources) + 0-30 Mp5 (situational sources)

In optimal conditions 100 itempoints of Intellect will most certainly surpass 100 Mp5 by a fair bit, making it more than twice as valuble. I think it's far more useful though to make the argument that in the worst possible conditions, Intellect will still surpass Mp5 by a fair bit.

Interesting.

I've never fully understood the likelyness of MP5 or formulas of it. So this may be a little.. offtopic :( . Maybe i'm just not really the kind of Holy Paladin to pay much attention to it.

My Mp5 comes from gear alone. I haven't socketted it. I just stacked Intellect as I get more crit.

As for the part about Judgement of Wisdom/Seal of Wisdom.


I use Light on both. The reason for this is because my spellpower isn't too great. So I increase my heals by 5%. Also, I use judgement of Light because it is much more reliable. I don't need to stand in Melee range, while everything that does physical damage to the target gets healed for 1% of their maximum health everytime they deal physical damage to the target.

This is just my play style, and It does work :P I may be in Protection Spec on the armory atm as I was having fun earlier tonight with Mr Hellscream.