icewell radiance!

So druids are screwed and warriors and paladins are lucky here? Since it only affects dodge druids will lose about half their avoidance while warriors will loose a lot less which they can make up (to a point) with block and parry.

Is it me or doesn't that seem wrong? I get the point behind it though, I am not exceptionally geared but even I sometimes feel to powerfull (not that I mind though :P ) and I support the "debuff", but it looks like druids (and DK's) are more affected by it then warriors and paladins.

You're right. Itemization definately went the wrong way in this expansion. Partly it's the fault of hardmodes being unintentially intruduced, partly it's just bad itemization.

Regarding tankgear, I think there are several design flaws. First of all, nearly all of the tankgear is the same:

- defense
- avoidance
- avoidance

or

- defense
- hit or expertise
- avoidance

Instead of giving more and more avoidance to tanks, it would be better if things like bonus armor or bonus HP would be on those pieces. Avoidance could increase over the lengh of an expansion very trivially, like from ~5% regarding gear out of heroic instances up to ~15% / 20% in the highest raid instance. This aswell would improve the situation of healers. It's not fun if you have to spam your target, 'cause one bad streak could happen all the time. It would be much better, if, like you also wrote down, the tanks would receive a constant stream of damage. Healers could plan, tanks could react if they would drop.

But this isn't even my point. With Chill of the Trone droping our Dodge, this impacts several things. As a Death Knight, our threat output will drop significantly. Yes, Ghostcrawler already responded that they are monitoring it and he just doesn't think, that this will happen. But unless we would convert more than 100% of our melee swings into rune strikes, there will be a threat loss.

Second thing: you remember those tank trinkets being postet on mmo-champion? Sure, things can change on the PTR, so please look at them again:

Each time you dodge an attack, you gain 27 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.

We won't dodge a lot and the net gain of stamina won't be up all the time (I assume it should be). So either bring in parry and block or even change the source to gain a stack completely.

Nice to know that the current versions of the 10man tank trinkets are rendered utterly useless by this change.

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Q u o t e:
Icecrown 10 Heroic Tank Trinket
Each time you dodge an attack, you gain 27 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.

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Going to be fun seeing it stack to 1-2 then drop off because you don't dodge anything...

The trinket part is really funny.

About the drood QQing, just l2p, 20% dodge is 20% dodge for everytank, and druids get the most benefit from radiance 'cos now only EH matters and druids are king of EH.

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Q u o t e:
So druids are screwed and warriors and paladins are lucky here? Since it only affects dodge druids will lose about half their avoidance while warriors will loose a lot less which they can make up (to a point) with block and parry.

Is it me or doesn't that seem wrong? I get the point behind it though, I am not exceptionally geared but even I sometimes feel to powerfull (not that I mind though :P ) and I support the "debuff", but it looks like druids (and DK's) are more affected by it then warriors and paladins.

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This is a straight nerf to avoidance, the value of dodge is not being reduced and it is applied after diminishing returns.

20% Dodge + 20% Parry = 40% Avoidance - 20% Dodge = 20% Avoidance
40% Dodge = 40% Avoidance - 20% Dodge = 20% Avoidance

The only class that is going to suffer slightly more from this change than others will be DKs as their threat will be reduced due to the rune strike mechanic.

From a survivability perspective, it is a 20% avoidance nerf for all classes and unless warriors/paladins/DKs are somehow at less than 20% dodge currently all will loose the same amount.

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The trinket part is really funny.

About the drood QQing, just l2p, 20% dodge is 20% dodge for everytank, and druids get the most benefit from radiance 'cos now only EH matters and druids are king of EH.

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While you are right about avoidance, the changes they are making to tank damage to be combined with the radiance means that EH is less important.

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Q u o t e:
So druids are screwed and warriors and paladins are lucky here? Since it only affects dodge druids will lose about half their avoidance while warriors will loose a lot less which they can make up (to a point) with block and parry.

Is it me or doesn't that seem wrong? I get the point behind it though, I am not exceptionally geared but even I sometimes feel to powerfull (not that I mind though :P ) and I support the "debuff", but it looks like druids (and DK's) are more affected by it then warriors and paladins.

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Got to disagree here it will affect all tanks equally exept the horrifficly undergeared ones who got less than 20% dodge.

Avoidance is relativley similar between all classes some theoretical numbers off average geared tanks:
Druid 50-65% dodge = lose 20% = 30-40% dodge left (+the miss)
Warrior 30-40% dodge 20-25% parry +block(not avoidance btw) thats total 50-65= -20% dodge= 10-20% dodge+parry= 30-40%

Deathknight and palading end up being similarish the overall loss is equal regardless of class yes druids got only dodge but they got far more of it than any other tank class could have.

Only ones less affected are the ones with less than 20% dodge (hey they probably should be gearing up in heroics not trying to do icecrown anyway...) so that wont really affect anything either

Any tank with less than 20% dodge shouldn't be setting foot in Icecrown. Period.

What concerns me is that Rune Strike, Blessing of Sanctuary, and Natural Reaction all have some additional effect from dodging an attack.

A flat out 20% reduction means that instead of a 60% chance to proc Sanctuary, I now have a 40% chance to proc it. That's a 1/3rd reduction in return from Blessing of Sanctuary. That translate more or less directly into threat because you can't keep up attacks when you're starved for mana.

I reckon the lack of rage for druids results in the same thing, and 20% less rune strike for DK's will affect their TPS as well.

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Personally, I would like it better if this Call of the Throne allowed bosses to still deal a fraction of the damage despite being dodged. Kind of like changing Dodge to act more like Block, but only in Icecrown (because non-IC bosses will be nigh impossible otherwise.) So if you have a 30% chance to dodge, you instead reduce that incoming dmg by X%, rather than 100%.

(edit: wrote parry in last part, meant block).

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Q u o t e:
A flat out 20% reduction means that instead of a 60% chance to proc Sanctuary, I now have a 40% chance to proc it.

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Holy Shield called, it wants you to use it.

Also:

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Q u o t e:
I would like it better if this Call of the Throne allowed bosses to still deal a fraction of the damage despite being dodged. Kind of like changing Dodge to act more like Parry

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That's not what parrying does at all at all.

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Q u o t e:


This is a straight nerf to avoidance, the value of dodge is not being reduced and it is applied after diminishing returns.

20% Dodge + 20% Parry = 40% Avoidance - 20% Dodge = 20% Avoidance
40% Dodge = 40% Avoidance - 20% Dodge = 20% Avoidance

The only class that is going to suffer slightly more from this change than others will be DKs as their threat will be reduced due to the rune strike mechanic.

From a survivability perspective, it is a 20% avoidance nerf for all classes and unless warriors/paladins/DKs are somehow at less than 20% dodge currently all will loose the same amount.



While you are right about avoidance, the changes they are making to tank damage to be combined with the radiance means that EH is less important.

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Although all theoretically true, I was just saying that warriors can compensate by gemming into parry/block while druids can't.
Example (theoretically ofcourse)
druid: 40% dodge - 20% chill of the throne = 20% dodge (straightforward)
war: 20% dodge - 20% chill of the throne + 20 % parry = 20% (also straightforward)
war 15% dodge - 20% chill of the throne + 25% parry = 25% (can't reduce dodge below 0% ofc)

That was the point I was making. So even though it's theoretically an equal reduction, the warrior/dk/paladin can all compensate (up to a point ofcourse) by taking parry (or block for war/pala).


In either case, what was the effect in Sunwell? Who got out on top there as being the least effected? or was it all similair then?

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Q u o t e:
Holy Shield called, it wants you to use it.

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Hmm.. sorry missed that one. Add 30% so it's 90% chance. Reduce by 20% to 70%. Reduction of 22%.

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Also:
That's not what parrying does at all at all.

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Sorry, that's a typo. Meant to write block, lol

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About the drood QQing, just l2p, 20% dodge is 20% dodge for everytank, and druids get the most benefit from radiance 'cos now only EH matters and druids are king of EH.

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that is not really called for is it? People who play with me will say I know how to play, I am just asking a question here and proposing possible problems. No reason to respond like this then, especially since it doesn't bring anything usefull to the discussion.

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Q u o t e:
Although all theoretically true, I was just saying that warriors can compensate by gemming into parry/block while druids can't.

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Gem parry? Are you even remotely serious?

Plus you can't drop below 20% dodge gemless in decent gear, so there's no way your 15% dodge warrior is ever going to exist.

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Gem parry? Are you even remotely serious?

Plus you can't drop below 20% dodge gemless in decent gear, so there's no way your 15% dodge warrior is ever going to exist.

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I don't know, I have never played a warrior ;) but in that case I stand corrected. :)

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Although all theoretically true, I was just saying that warriors can compensate by gemming into parry/block while druids can't.
Example (theoretically ofcourse)
druid: 40% dodge - 20% chill of the throne = 20% dodge (straightforward)
war: 20% dodge - 20% chill of the throne + 20 % parry = 20% (also straightforward)
war 15% dodge - 20% chill of the throne + 25% parry = 25% (can't reduce dodge below 0% ofc)

That was the point I was making. So even though it's theoretically an equal reduction, the warrior/dk/paladin can all compensate (up to a point ofcourse) by taking parry (or block for war/pala).


In either case, what was the effect in Sunwell? Who got out on top there as being the least effected? or was it all similair then?

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The value of these stats remain unchanged, nobody who is in ICC will be able to drop below 20% dodge anyway so it is a moot point. Gemming parry would have the same effect that gemming dodge would on a druid.

The tanking situation in sunwell is incomparable to now and trying to draw comparisons is pointless because all classes able to tank have been completely revamped.

Can't wait for this tbh :D

Looking forward to tanking with the "debuff" too :)

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Q u o t e:
So druids are screwed and warriors and paladins are lucky here? Since it only affects dodge druids will lose about half their avoidance while warriors will loose a lot less which they can make up (to a point) with block and parry.

Is it me or doesn't that seem wrong? I get the point behind it though, I am not exceptionally geared but even I sometimes feel to powerfull (not that I mind though :P ) and I support the "debuff", but it looks like druids (and DK's) are more affected by it then warriors and paladins.

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everyone will take 20 more hits in 100

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Q u o t e:
Nice to know that the current versions of the 10man tank trinkets are rendered utterly useless by this change.



Going to be fun seeing it stack to 1-2 then drop off because you don't dodge anything...

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That is hilarious in a horrible and sadistic way.

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Any tank with less than 20% dodge shouldn't be setting foot in Icecrown. Period.

What concerns me is that Rune Strike, Blessing of Sanctuary, and Natural Reaction all have some additional effect from dodging an attack.

A flat out 20% reduction means that instead of a 60% chance to proc Sanctuary, I now have a 40% chance to proc it. That's a 1/3rd reduction in return from Blessing of Sanctuary. That translate more or less directly into threat because you can't keep up attacks when you're starved for mana.

I reckon the lack of rage for druids results in the same thing, and 20% less rune strike for DK's will affect their TPS as well.

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IT wont lower threat to druids and paladins, You ll get HIT instead of DODGE and HIT gives more rage to druids (and warriors) and more MANA to paladins (after it is healed) than DODGE. So if anything, your threat ll increase in fights where you can be mana/rage starved