As you can see, we are trying some different things with some paladin mechanics.

The Aura Mastery change (to 6 sec duration) is one we think is appropriate. If I had to guess, this one will stick.

We are trying some things with Sacred Shield to make it more of a Holy tool and less useful for Ret and Prot (without being totally irrelevant). I don't have a lot of faith that the implementation on the PTR is the one we'll go with for a couple of reasons, but our overall goal is to make Ret less tanky and the Holy tree feel like it's the right one to focus on for healing. I would expect a Sacred Shield change of some kind though.

I wouldn't worry too much on the Lay on Hands change at this point. I don't want to promise we won't change the spell for 3.3, but our intent was to revert the others only change before it went out to the PTR, which is why we didn't patch note it. We have already changed it back on our local builds.

The paladin class isn't just supposed to be for support anymore, but at the same time, the original intent for many paladin abilities was to help the group. Over time however they have contributed into making the paladin into a "one-man army," able to play offensively, defensively and heal without say the stance changing or shapeshifting or sometimes event talent specialization required of other classes. Many of the LK balance problems we've had with the class are because of that core issue.

With that said, we're just not sure a Lay on Hands change really accomplishes much from a balance perspective, while it feels bad to lose such an iconic ability. We just don't think the bang for the buck is there on this change, which is why we reverted it. But I'm not going to promise we won't touch it.

In fact, I'm not going to promise anything with this post. :) Please don't dredge it up later to try and argue against any upcoming changes. I'm just trying to clear up some confusion.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Fair enough I suppose.

i agree on all the changes apart from the LoH 1 >.< but maybe make it so it only restores 50% of maximum i think the LoH is the only issue guys have atm since its pallys 3rd CD.. getting rid of this for tanks to cast on themselves only gives em 2 tankin CD's

also it effects holy pallys but tbh cause i never healed on me pally i dont really know how much of a nerf it will b for them

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i agree on all the changes apart from the LoH 1 >.< but maybe make it so it only restores 50% of maximum i think the LoH is the only issue guys have atm since its pallys 3rd CD.. getting rid of this for tanks to cast on themselves only gives em 2 tankin CD's

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The new DS/DG can very well end up being a new mini shieldwall, giving tanks an extra cooldown to play with. The new DG ability being 20% less damage for 6 sec with 2 min cooldown, with the effect being raid wide, this may end up as an very usefull tanking ability.

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also it effects holy pallys but tbh cause i never healed on me pally i dont really know how much of a nerf it will b for them

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The main reason to cast LoH on yourself would be to regain some mana, apart from the times where you need to save you owne life, but i somewhat feel that if i need to use both bubble and LoH to stay alive i'm going something wrong. Divine Favor with holy shock give me alittle less then 50% of my health, but i can use it much more freely then LoH and it's the panik button i use the most.

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Q u o t e:


The new DS/DG can very well end up being a new mini shieldwall, giving tanks an extra cooldown to play with. The new DG ability being 20% less damage for 6 sec with 2 min cooldown, with the effect being raid wide, this may end up as an very usefull tanking ability.

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oh well... looks like im gettin them talents after all then... wot about the SS side of it though? i mean would it stay the same cause itd b pretty useless in prot talent tree now..

The ptr description of the new DS don't say anything about SS, but it says they have redesigned it, that could mean they removed the buff to SS.

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The effect of Divine Sacrifice is now party-only and the maximum damage which can be transferred is now limited to 40% of the paladin’s health multiplied by the number of party members. In addition, the bug which allowed Divine Sacrifice to sometimes persist despite reaching its maximum damage has been fixed. Divine Sacrifice will now cancel as soon as its maximum damage value is exceeded in all cases. Finally, damage which reduces the paladin’s health below 20% now cancels the effect early.

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LoH isnt really an issue imho since it's used in random duels and by tanks as a last try before the wipe. it's not used in arena so it shouldn't be an issue and i don't think it should receive such an attention. as to the other tweaks, I don't know they aren't huge changes so if they wana go ahead it won't hurt the class so much on the PVE side, though it will a bit on the PVP side I think. But I don't PVP in wotlk cause it's screwed up anyway.

what bothers me is that paladins are always matter of tweaks and arguments, yet we have druids in tree forms which are practically unkillable these days; same as disc priests; and when we speak arena, it's either huge damage on PVE gear, or huge cc chains - there ins't really anything more to that in the wotlk arena these days. paladins are hybrid, but so what? so are druids who make excellent tanks and wonderful healers; priests make excellent healers and excellent DPs.

I don't get it... we're hybrids, hence the lack of specialization, it's our job to have a good mix of different offensive and defensive skills in order to be useful in a group or playing alone.

Pardon me if I got it wrong but it sounds like he's saying; this is what you get for not rolling a druid since they're real hybrids with their shapeshifting penalties ?

Will this move from "hybrid support" to a more defined role for every specc mean that we will get more spells to help accomplish this? Because, as Blizzard should know, Retri won't be balanced before their attacks become slightly more so that retris can and have to choose what to do, rather than just click whatever is of cd. Oh, add those things everyone else have too, interrupts slows etc, you can't balance a specc around only giving damage when its supportive role is being negated heavily over and over.

And Holy does, really does, need a fourth heal. Of course I am fine with the current toolset, but we have three (3) heals as of now and depending on the way you gear or what difficulty you play you may consider skipping atleast one of the three we have completely, and just FoL or HL spamm your way to greatness.

"Insert paladin rage"

meh can't solo old instances as ret anymoar :<

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Q u o t e:
Blue-tagging this thread to make sure that more people see this.

As you can gather from Ghostcrawler's post, we are trying a few things with Paladin Mechanics in order to address some of the balance concerns we have with the class. It is not yet certain if the changes on the PTR will make it to live realms in their current state, and if a change turns out not to work as we would like, then that change will be changed yet again or simply reverted.

The good thing about the test realm is that changes like these can be tested without any permanent impact on balance on live realms.

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Look's like you will have alot of work today :P

BTW.Nice mug.

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Q u o t e:
Blue-tagging this thread to make sure that more people see this.

As you can gather from Ghostcrawler's post, we are trying a few things with Paladin Mechanics in order to address some of the balance concerns we have with the class. It is not yet certain if the changes on the PTR will make it to live realms in their current state, and if a change turns out not to work as we would like, then that change will be changed yet again or simply reverted.

The good thing about the test realm is that changes like these can be tested without any permanent impact on balance on live realms.

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How about instead of you (Blizzard class developement/balance team/systems design) "...trying a few things with Paladin Mechanics..." instead try to work out a proper DPS/tanking rotation?.

longWriter on Youtube slapped you guys real hard when he systematically picked apart your idea of a Paladin in his DBRHP-episodes and showed just how bad things had gotten before you took serious action and tried to make the Paladin viable in the game (apart from holy, of course, pre WotLK).

Why do you think people call us retribution paladins for instance "faceroll"? It's because you designed our class/spec to be so easily playable instead of trying to make it a bit..you know...challenging?

I mean where did you people even get the idea to change Sacred Shield? If you guys haven't been paying attention - we're supposed to be the most defensive class in the game, so why do you keep taking *away* our defenses?

You'll forgive me if this sounds like whining to you - but this pretty much sums up what I feel about these latest set of changes, for once I had hoped the "Paladin Patch Notes" would include something positive like say a change in our talents that would actually give us a rotation - and if you're short on ideas - skim through the forums, there's a ton of topics with good changes. Granted many of the changes are ridiculously overpowered at first glance - but they're still worth looking at, numbers is something that is always subject to tweaking/changing.

Look on the bright side: It wasn't a hotfix this time!

I hear battlegrounds are the new focus of the pvp balance, who would have thought after all those arena tweaks ruining PvE since its launch.

QQ can win guys, lets all make alts and QQ about palas lacking stuff or other classes being OP

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(...)instead of trying to make it a bit..you know...challenging?

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Well in current state playing palladin is very.... chalenging - trying accomplish something, or survive without any real tools

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Well in current state playing palladin is very.... chalenging - trying accomplish something, or survive without any real tools

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There is a big difference between a class being challening and a class being plain weak. Hunters, for example, are challenging. They have the tools but you'd need to be a world class pianist to actually get as much effect out of them as other classes such as warrior do while button bashing.

Paladins on the other hand, dont have the tools. No amount of skill can change that. The success of a paladin in PvP purely goes down to the amount of mistakes his opponent makes and the quality of his gear.

To be fair, it's been coming for a while now. I've felt quite OP in PvE situations.

I'd very much like LoH to remain usable in PvE on myself as it has often been a wipe saver for me. Some clasic moments where I've been the last man standing against Thaddius when he had almost no health remaining and the LoH has made the difference between a wipe and downing him (Obviously the bubble was useful there too). But with the AD life saving utility that came in last patch I guess it's a bit above and beyond.

Not sure how much the SS change will actually have an effect. As a healer I mostly cast it to get the HoT, as Tank I seldom put it on, unless the Healer is struggling.

Overall I think there's nothing to cry too much over if the LoH changes remains reverted.

Actually paladins in PVP are setted "GOD MODE" on.