GhostCrawler :
"Vanish failing is a bug, but it's a hard one to fix, and rogues are dominant in both PvE and PvP despite of it, so it's also not a "all hands on deck" problem either. "

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19820641443&sid=1&pageNo=3#43

Two interpretations possible here :
1) "rogues are fine, fixing it is not a priority"

2) "rogues are fine, fixing vanish would make them OP"

So which one had GC mind ?

Reading the recent rogue Q&A, I can't help thinking #2 is the right interpretation.
" We need to solve the frustration part of the ability, but not also greatly buff rogue survivability or damage potential when doing it.",

That means basically Blizzard would be balancing a class around a bug.

Interested in your opinions here 'cause, even if rogues are fine, this is a design philosophy I'm really uncomfortable with. How about frustration ? Better fix vanish and balance rogues through other means if need be.

EDIT : Vanish change in 3.3.

"We have a change for Vanish in place for 3.3. You will get to try it out soon (tm). As promised, if it proves a significant buff to rogues, we may have to compensate elsewhere. Just because it hasn't worked as intended doesn't mean it will be balanced when it does. "
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/20136596247-fix-vanish-no-more-excuses-gc.html

Thanks ! About time.

EDIT2 :
GC : "we're not going to let a broken ability stay broken just because the class is doing well. That's not good design. As I said, we may have to make adjustments in other ways"

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20136599376&sid=1&pageNo=23#455

I guess this answers my initial concern. Thanks for clarifying.

While GC makes it seem like the Vanish bug is a low priority (and let's face it, it is. It's an escape mechanic not often used in PVE - which still is the majority of the game) you missed a very important issue anyway: "Vanish failing is a bug, but it's a hard one to fix".

Vanish is a bug that exists due to flawed communication. The second you press Vanish, it might lag to reach the server - at which point the Hunter Pet didn't get the "stop, target vanished" flag in time, so to speak. It's incredibly tough to fix and is lag-dependant, which is not just a server issue.

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Q u o t e:
Better fix vanish and balance rogues through other means if need be.

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Ask Druids about the Cat-Form Range Bug or Warriors about the Charge Bug. Blizzard takes their sweet time to fix bugs like this, mainly because they're not game-breaking on the most part. They'll get to this, probably Soon™.

Obligatory trolling for the hell of it, non-serious: You can't balance rogues unless stuns share a DR, Sap doesn't work from a million miles away, Cloak of Skills is removed and Sprint can't be active in Stealth.

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Q u o t e:

That means basically Blizzard would be balancing a class around a bug.

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Interesting interpretation there, I wonder how you came to that?

All I see is "we want to fix it, but we don't want to over-fix it, so we need to balance the fix around the class". Which isn't unreasonable.

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Q u o t e:

All I see is "we want to fix it, but we don't want to over-fix it, so we need to balance the fix around the class". Which isn't unreasonable.

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Curious how you can "over-fix" an ability ? Either it works as intended or not.
If fixing vanish makes the rogue OP then balance can be achieved by other means.
But relying on a bugged vanish to balance rogue is a very flawed design philosophy imo.

Instead of making up bad excuses just @%**ing say that it's too hard to fix this bug. Come down to earth Blizzard

They just say they don't want to add an immunity or something to fix it because that's not how the ability should work. Don't overreact it.

On the other hand yeah, just say working as intended and change the tooltip to "gives the rogue a chance to fade into the shadows" or something... Don't give us hope that it will be fixed someday...

To be totally honest I'd much rather have them working on Hack and Slash hitting damaged targets instead of current target than sorting out Vanish.
It's so incredibly stupid Hack and Slash doesn't work when Killing Spree jumps to secondary targets or for that matter if you happen to be out of range of your primary target when you use Fan of Knives.

When you die because vannish doesnt do what its supposed to do it is very frustrating and does only make me think what an retarded game. Cant help it but thats how I feel when a game feature doesnt work .

Tbh my heart stopped when I saw vanish on the list of bug fixes when I read 3.2.2s changelog....then I realised it was just a goddamn frostfirebolt issue....also stop claiming vanish is not gamebreaking when you don't have a rogue / never did arenas .... at least that's what I see from mister prot warrs achievements...sup y0.

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Q u o t e:
GhostCrawler :
"Vanish failing is a bug, but it's a hard one to fix, and rogues are dominant in both PvE and PvP despite of it, so it's also not a "all hands on deck" problem either. ".

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Lol. And once vanish is fixed you'll be even more OP.

Moaning invisible warriors. Can I have a lend of your One Ring please?

They can probably bullsh*t FOTM rogues with this "hard to fix" as they never experienced a working vanish even at 5000ms. But I've been playing rogue since march 2005 and I can tell you it worked then so why doesn't it work now? I can vaguely remember something in the patch notes about changing how vanish works and I think it was around that time vanish got broken. So just undo that sh*t and it will work again.

What I find interesting is that we are apparently dominating pvp, yet we hold a 3% representation on SK100 and 1 of those is ranked 100 so 2% is only just around the corner.

We are only "dominant" in pvp when we are against poorly geared characters that cannot survive stunlocks.

After the stun lock you are left with quite a weak class in pvp in terms mobility and survivability. Even our damage is weak compared to any other class. Take destro locks, death knights, warriors, ret palas, hunters, mages, shadow priests, feral druids, elemental/enhancement shamans and compare the pressure they can put out compared to a rogue.

Truth is we just keep a target wounded/stunned while the other class deals the damage, it works because the other class will put out extremely high damage and rogue is very good at allowing your partner to unleash their damage onto the target.

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Q u o t e:
"Vanish failing is a bug, but it's a hard one to fix".

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Oh come on, how hard can it be to force you to stay in stealth even if hit for a second or two?

Rogues have much survivability after 15seconds of combat? Cool, didn't know

so if fixing it would make us OP that would mean we are OP whenever it works now then i guess, funny then how it's probably the easiest counterable and easiest cooldown ability to prevent in the entire game(can be countered and/or prevented by every single class in many diferent ways with no demand of using a cd)

At least it's progress, it's not THAT long ago vanish was WAI while being just as broken as it is now.
So at least they're being honest, which is always nice.

I still think it'd be really nice if they sorted it out and then fixed any balance issues though, RNG is no fun at all, especially when it comes to something as essential as a threat wipe/escape mechanism.

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Q u o t e:
They can probably bullsh*t FOTM rogues with this "hard to fix" as they never experienced a working vanish even at 5000ms. But I've been playing rogue since march 2005 and I can tell you it worked then so why doesn't it work now? I can vaguely remember something in the patch notes about changing how vanish works and I think it was around that time vanish got broken. So just undo that sh*t and it will work again.

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They didn't change how vanish worked, they changed something in the targetting system(to make it more responsive). Namely, patch 1.6 if am not mistaken.

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Q u o t e:

They didn't change how vanish worked, they changed something in the targetting system(to make it more responsive). Namely, patch 1.6 if am not mistaken.

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Nah.


on topic, i fail to see whats so terribly difficult about how to code a vanish to keep you in stealth for a second or two after vanishing, regardless of wether you are hit or not.

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Q u o t e:
, mainly because they're not game-breaking on the most part. They'll get to this, probably Soon™.

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O´boy. you are SO wrong there.........Vanish bug IS gamebreaking.
And it is so, in a degree that´s making people quit the class because of it!