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Q u o t e:
Im quite confused to why SoV was changed because of PvP?

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Because it outshone SoC and made it worthless.

EJL

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Q u o t e:


Because it outshone SoC and made it worthless.

EJL

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Well ye SoV outshined SoC in PvE dramatically, but it didnt really outshine SoC in pvp by much atall since u needed to stack it to full to get any use out of the seal.
It was gd against melee combat players but any kiters SoV was close to useless and SoC was best since it gave u direct damage and not having to stack and wait.
SoV wasnt better than SoC, it was better in some occasions, but same as SoC was better in some occasions SoV wasnt. the SoV seal was in no way OP in pvp atall i just dont see why the nerf was put into play?

i didnt see any public outcry for a SoV nerf because it was OP in pvp or pve, unless i missed those posts.

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Q u o t e:
Eh.. Who cares about PvE if u have PvP :D? What's the fun about killing some NPCs while knowing some lifeless computer is controlling it.. Go go PvP, way more fun x)! (Unless u suck at if ofc, but go play Age of Empires then )

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Not that you'd know. Doesn't look like you've done any PvE.

Although I agree. Naxxramas was boring.

If you ask me (and of course no one is) it just comes across as they have no actual clue to what they are doing, it's just a total mess as to what attack does this and what spell does that, plus does this attack count as melee or is it an actual spell, lets stack this up lets debuff this lets buff that.

It's a mess and a joke. I love my pally but it's just beyond funny anymore.

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Q u o t e:
<door opens>
Ret Paladin: Where the hell Am I?

<Ding dong! Welcome to fail room you have been sent here by your inhouse failuredev (lolmeamcodeVB!) to await viabaility in the game you currently pay for and have done for some time. Please take a seat and enjoy your stay>

Ret Paladin: Oh right..erm...oh hai

Affliction Warlock: Lo..

Feral Druid: woof

Ret Paladin: Guess I'm back ghere again..wait shouldn't that be meow?

Feral Druid: meow was nerfed, rogues prefer dogs

Ret Paladin: Who is the spare seat for?

Affliction Warlock: Thats the shadow priest's, he comes back in here when he tries to do PVP

Ret Paladin: And the guy face down on the floor?

Feral Druid: That the enchancement shamen...he's been here some time

Ret Paladin: So...any chance we'll be out of here soon?

Affliction Lock: doubt it, they got another 200 non combat pets, an event involving gardening and a mount that resembles a boeing 747 to put in before they care about us....

Ret Paladin: <sniff> I used to be able to kill people..who made that change come about?

Feral Druid: Retards..can't play for crap but they can certainly use forums :(......erm..i mean WOOF!

<DING DONG!!><door opens>

2v2 Arena team: oh hai guys...

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Pure win !!


The basic thing is , even if those 3.2 changes arent that bad after all its just have been done in a seriously wrong, bad , sad and annoying way makeing our playstyle and fun of the retadin ruined. And that really grinds my gears :( . I think I will just cancel my subscription and wait till they get things more serious and less annoying.

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typos edited

A small change would be to let Vengeance stack by using Crusader Strike. It'd cut the stacking time by alot, which allows the paladin to do acceptable DPS faster.

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Q u o t e:
any class with finishing moves will typically lose this kind of damage as well on short fights

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Both classes with finishing moves do significantly higher DPS than us.

how to apply stacks if you can't get close enough for long enough time?

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Q u o t e:
The damage of retribution Paladins should be quite good once the stack has been filled up, but it is true that you may benefit less from this change during short fights due to the longer stacking time. It should be added though, that any class with finishing moves will typically lose this kind of damage as well on short fights, but it is normal to use different rotations and abilities depending on the length and type of fight you are in. That being said, balance is important for both short and long fights.

We are closely monitoring the situation on the PTR, as it is not our intention to nerf Retribution Paladins in PvE. We will make adjustments and changes if it turns out that Retribution Paladins are not where they need to be, and we will continue to monitor the situation after the patch goes live as well.

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It's not really short fights that are the real problem, since as you say many classes suffer from this. It's fights where you can't just dps the boss for a long period of time. Not every boss fight is like Patchwerk and if we can't auto attack once in 15 seconds we lose a lot of dps, whereas finisher classes tend to buff themselves, so they just need to apply one move and can start their rotation again.

Still hopefully if it turns out too bad for ret you will step up. Blizzard's quick enough to hotfix nerfs, so hotfixing buffs should be no problem :P

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Q u o t e:
A small change would be to let Vengeance stack by using Crusader Strike. It'd cut the stacking time by alot, which allows the paladin to do acceptable DPS faster.

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I think this would be a very good solution actually.

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Q u o t e:
The damage of retribution Paladins should be quite good once the stack has been filled up

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The trouble, Vaneras, is that is going to Retadins almost 15 seconds to get the stack filled up. How many targets last that long in PvE? Not many.

SoV is going to shine only on bosses. And even then, only on bosses which are static enough that mobility isn't an issue. And even then, only where the boss doesn't have fears, stuns or anything else which stops us attacking. Multiple MoBs are also going to be a nightmare because we don't have any way of applying this now very needed DoT.

The Seal got all but destroyed with this change. And the perception that Blizzard nerfed it simply to make the very underwhelming SoC the preferred Seal in PvP hasn't helped either.

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Q u o t e:
It should be added though, that any class with finishing moves will typically lose this kind of damage as well on short fights

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Other classes with finishing moves DON'T have a 15 second ramp up time.

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Q u o t e:
but it is normal to use different rotations and abilities depending on the length and type of fight you are in.[/quote}

We have NO OTHER abilities to use. Our rotation, such as it is is the EXACT same regardless of the fight we are in. We will always be using the FCFS rotation of Cons, DS, CS, Exo and Judgement. It won't matter if that's vs bosses, trash, AoE or single target.

[quote]We are closely monitoring the situation on the PTR, as it is not our intention to nerf Retribution Paladins in PvE. We will make adjustments and changes if it turns out that Retribution Paladins are not where they need to be, and we will continue to monitor the situation after the patch goes live as well.

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Again, there are mixed signals once again coming from Blizzard. Not so long ago, GC stated Retadins were low on DPS. He was envisaging a scenario where SoV would be THE DPS Seal, even in PvP. The patch here destroys SoV for every fight that lasts less than 2 or 3 minutes. At the same time, DPS looks like it will be decreasing.

Further, while there is monitoring going on on the PTR, we're already in the retail build for 3.2. That's not a lot of time so Paladins feel that this is how we will be. Mnay of us don't want to be usiong SoR again but right now, its looking very much that SoR will be the Retadin Seal of Choice on all non-boss fights.

EJL

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Q u o t e:
The damage of retribution Paladins should be quite good once the stack has been filled up, but it is true that you may benefit less from this change during short fights due to the longer stacking time. It should be added though, that any class with finishing moves will typically lose this kind of damage as well on short fights, but it is normal to use different rotations and abilities depending on the length and type of fight you are in. That being said, balance is important for both short and long fights.

We are closely monitoring the situation on the PTR, as it is not our intention to nerf Retribution Paladins in PvE. We will make adjustments and changes if it turns out that Retribution Paladins are not where they need to be, and we will continue to monitor the situation after the patch goes live as well.

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Pala retri need a balance in pve??? But if right now our dps is under a lot of other class, what kind of balance/nerf we need in pve???!!!!! My god i cannot understand this...

I was just reading on MMO bout all the discussion about if the SoV change is a good thing or a bad thing. first i would like to point out all these changes are in mind that blizz devs wanted too make ret be moire challenging in doing dmg instead of doing the faceroll thingie which all hate/love (fill in what you want) they are moving in the right direction with making a choice on when too unleash your exorcism (synergy with AoW) but still AoW is usually always still up :P but why not build out the synergy things further. i posted this idea on MMo i was wondering what you all thought about it

quote
I was thinking about a nice way too go with SoV wondering what you all think bout it.

What if you changed SoV as the 11 pointer in rettree instead of SoC making it do almost the same as SoC does now (maybe some other numbers for dmg) and keeping the stacking debuff but throwing out the dmg this debuff does. Now change CS into having something extra on it as too making it do extra dmg the more debuff stacks you have from SoV maybe let it stack too 10 times or so and having each stack do 2% more CS dmg or keep the stack at 5 and let it do 4% extra CS dmg.

This would still keep the burst low and sustained dmg good also this could make pala dmg a bit more interesting still need too think this farther out than this is now cause it still needs stacking up from start and not bursty enough for fast bursting maybe throw in that after several stacks it don't stack anymore and you have bout 10s to do CS otherwise you have too reply the stack again even making a glyph for it so it applies stacks faster might work some things out just throwing out ideas here.

Tell me what you thinjk bout it

To be completely honest, considering I've lamped out 12k SoV judgement crits, I can see where the devs are coming from - the ramp up time is NOTHING in comparison to the damage you can put out when you're fully stacked. Remember people, your average boss fight is, what, 7 minutes longs? Call the ramp up speed 12 seconds... only about 3% of the entire fight you're not throwing out DOUBLE damage on your critical hits.

The only concern I have is that you continually have to restack in boss fights with different phases. Yes, I understand other classes have to do this too, but we're hindered by our swing speed. Lets take, I dunno, Sapphiron. If he takes to the air 5 times in one 7 minute fight, that then changes the Percentage of unmaxed damage to 14.28% of the fight, which is quite significant. Round it down to 14%, lets see where that takes us.

Assuming 4k dps average,
hit/exp capped,
12 second ramp up time.
420 seconds (7 Minutes)
Reduction of 20% during "Ramp Up Time"

Without Ramp-up Time -

4000 * 420 = 1,680,000


With 5 Ramp-up Times -

(5 * (4000/100 * 80 * 12)) + (4000 * 360) = 1632000


50,000 points of damage, or 2.85% less damage throughout the fight. It's not an earth shattering amount.

However, it IS a damage loss, not the increase we were told. Now, how to get around this problem? Three Ways -

Stack Consuming - A "Boom Button" if you will. All stacks are eaten, damage is <Dmg> * Stacks. Will lead to HIGH burst damage in PVP though.


Stacks On The Paladin - The 5 stacks ramp up on the paladin on melee hit, and the target is "Infected" for lack of a better term, once the 5 stacks are applied. Again though, this doesn't eliminate the pvp problem, as the paladin will be at pretty much full buffs constantly.


This one is my personal favourite -


Deteriorating Stacks - Rather than all 5 being removed at time expiry, make the stack timer smaller and have it deteriorate by one,

EG
[5 Stacks] <-- 8 seconds pass --> [4 Stacks] <-- 8 seconds pass --> [3 Stacks]

I choose 8 seconds because that's easily two swings with current weapons, Allowing room for anyone not hit/exp capped. This has the nerf that Blizzard has been looking for, without such a significant drop in DPS due to high ramp-up times.


Thoughts? :)

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Q u o t e:
how to apply stacks if you can't get close enough for long enough time?

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PvE!
PvP is where it's supposed to be weaker compared to the 3.1 implementation, it's PvE where it can be tricky as many fights actually have you frequently lose your stack.

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Q u o t e:


Both classes with finishing moves do significantly higher DPS than us.

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And dont take as long to build up to finishing moves either........

Basically this change would be like DKs having to use all 6 runes to get diseases up before being able to do full dps and not having pestilence to spread them around. It's !%%*ing retarded and a complete disgrace to the dev team, and I really can't believe professional people either can't see how @#%# their idea is, or are ok with giving us this piece of crap. In Ulduar the only bosses where we will not completely suck with this system are Ignis, Council and Vezax (and Thorim if you don't wanna count the arena), every other boss has mandatory target switching which will completly !%%* our dps in the neck. Never have I been so disapponted at the sheer incompentence of these people before, and never before have they gone so completely and so hard in the completely wrong direction with their changes. If this goes live I hope they plan on making every single boss ever from now on single target tank and spank or ret palas will be absolute @#%# again.

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Q u o t e:
The damage of retribution Paladins should be quite good once the stack has been filled up

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- "once"!! that's the point...and if we can not, because the fight design, or player cc, blink, ect, what's on?

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Q u o t e:
but it is true that you may benefit less from this change during short fights due to the longer stacking time

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- not only short fights, but also when u can't focus all the time the same target...70% of boss fight in Ulduar. No mentions on areanas. Right now all run off from pallies. I can imagine in 3.2. It will be a kitepally fest.

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Q u o t e:
but it is normal to use different rotations and abilities depending on the length and type of fight you are in

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- So will we have a different choice? Don't tell SoC, because humor time is gone.

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Q u o t e:
That being said, balance is important for both short and long fights

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- agree!! So??

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Q u o t e:
we will continue to monitor the situation after the patch goes live as well

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^^...earlier, please, earlier!!!
Last time I read a sentence like this it was before the BC release...enouth said.


To be constructive: try to be more openminded on how the dots stacks, leaving out the "only autoattack" thing. May be the solution is easier than we all think...:)

And give us anything that stops even rats to kite us around in pvp, please! No, JoJ is not the answer.